Sternhauser Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 "Put me in the front of the army, without weapons or armor; but I will not draw sword again. I am become the soldier of Christ." -St. Martin of Tours, refusing to bow before the iron crown. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1258003803' post='2001143'] "Put me in the front of the army, without weapons or armor; but I will not draw sword again. I am become the soldier of Christ." -St. Martin of Tours, refusing to bow before the iron crown. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='picchick' date='12 November 2009 - 04:09 AM' timestamp='1258013377' post='2001200'] Go for it. [/quote] I have no need. Unlike St. Martin of Tours before his conversion, I thankfully did not put myself in a morally compromising position through signing up to serve what powers might be, and the subsequent likely possibility of being asked to kill the innocent. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Soo.... what? We're not supposed to have an any military forces? Not really sure I'm seeing the point of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='IcePrincessKRS' date='12 November 2009 - 12:40 PM' timestamp='1258044027' post='2001303'] Soo.... what? We're not supposed to have an any military forces? Not really sure I'm seeing the point of this thread. [/quote] Of course there can be armed defense forces. Simply not State militaries. Politicians don't have a problem with killing babies and torturing people, but otherwise sane people still expect them to justly decide who else it is moral to use violence against. That is beyond comprehension. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1258044202' post='2001306'] Of course there can be armed defense forces. Simply not State militaries. Politicians don't have a problem with killing babies and torturing people, but otherwise sane people still expect them to justly decide who else it is moral to use violence against. That is beyond comprehension. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Yes, the problem is the state, not the people. There is no utopia; get it out of your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) . Edited November 12, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrincessKRS Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1258044490' post='2001310'] Of course there can be armed defense forces. Simply not State militaries. Politicians don't have a problem with killing babies and torturing people, but otherwise sane people still expect them to justly decide who else it is moral to use violence against. That is beyond comprehension. ~Sternhauser [/quote] you already said that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 12, 2009 Author Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' date='12 November 2009 - 12:44 PM' timestamp='1258044283' post='2001307'] Yes, the problem is the state, not the people. There is no utopia; get it out of your head. [/quote] I'm not looking for utopia. Is it seeking utopia to ask people to use their reason to apprehend what is good, and to do it? To ask people to recognize people to recognize what is unwise, and refrain from it? I can't get "Catholics" to acknowledge that torture is always evil. I get, "Well the Golden Rule and basic morality sound good in theory, but they are impractical." Or some other emotionally-based pragmatist response which is dismissive of sound logic. ~Sternhauser Edited November 12, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1258040883' post='2001290'] I have no need. Unlike St. Martin of Tours before his conversion, I thankfully did not put myself in a morally compromising position through signing up to serve what powers might be, and the subsequent likely possibility of being asked to kill the innocent. ~Sternhauser [/quote] So what are you saying. I am interpreting this to be those who sign up for the military are putting themselves in a morally compromising position. I am seeing this as, those who are signing up for the military are wrong because they are putting themself in a bad position to try and practice being a good Catholic. And if you have no need why post it here? [quote name='Sternhauser' date='12 November 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1258044686' post='2001312'] I'm not looking for utopia. Is it seeking utopia to ask people to use their reason to apprehend what is good, and to do it? To ask people to recognize people to recognize what is unwise, and refrain from it? I can't get "Catholics" to acknowledge that torture is always evil. I get, "Well the Golden Rule and basic morality sound good in theory, but they are impractical." Or some other emotionally-based pragmatist response which is dismissive of sound logic. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Are you talking about torture or military? You start out talking about military. Now it is torture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Some of my favorite Saints, who fought in battle while at the same time practicing heroic virtue: St. Nuno Alvares Pereira [img]http://barrymichaels.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/e-146-a_0001_1_p24-c-r0072.jpg[/img] St. Louis IX [img]http://z.about.com/d/historymedren/1/0/L/F/2/louis9_mo_statue.jpg[/img] St. Joan of Arc [img]http://www.dailygalaxy.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/09/joan_of_arc_miniature_c1450_1500_2.jpg[/img] There is also of course St. Bernard who preached in support of the Second Crusade: [img]http://templars.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/saint_bernard.jpg[/img] Then there's Pope St. Pius V, who sent his troops to fight at Lepanto: [img]http://maryvictrix.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/piux-v-sistine.jpg[/img] And we must not forget Blessed Urban II, who so eloquently preached to get the First Crusade started: [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1FIiXo4cCjY/SeAszxg9qqI/AAAAAAAAACo/HApX8kuDtXU/s320/CouncilofClermont.jpg[/img] Edited November 12, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' date='12 November 2009 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1258068736' post='2001489'] So what are you saying. I am interpreting this to be those who sign up for the military are putting themselves in a morally compromising position. I am seeing this as, those who are signing up for the military are wrong because they are putting themself in a bad position to try and practice being a good Catholic.[/quote] Not only a morally compromising position, but a full-blown near occasion of sin. Not sins of gluttony, or lust. Full-blown murder. The mafia and the military (especially the United State military) are probably the only two institutions that invariably threaten to kill you if you try to quit without their permission. [quote]And if you have no need why post it here?[/quote] Encouragement to those who are deciding whether or not to make a prudent decision with the course of their lives. And to encourage those who value reason over emotion, and who may therefore be close to realizing that belligerent action at the behest of the State is not an intrinsically laudable action. ~Sternhauser Edited November 13, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 Well thank you for judging those who served, are serving, or will serve. And thank you for disrespecting the decision of those who put their emotion over reason, as you say. I am sorry I am so much less of a Catholic than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 13, 2009 Author Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='picchick' date='12 November 2009 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1258078594' post='2001623'] Well thank you for judging those who served, are serving, or will serve.[/quote] I am not judging their hearts, which are doubtless well-intentioned. I am certainly not judging their souls. I judge the prudence and the manifest results of their decision to put themselves in the violent service of politicians. [quote]And thank you for disrespecting the decision of those who put their emotion over reason, as you say. [/quote] Some choices cannot be respected, however noble their intent. ~Sternhauser Edited November 13, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth09 Posted November 13, 2009 Share Posted November 13, 2009 (edited) http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ICCoEC9hSwc/RtkQS-MliYI/AAAAAAAAC4o/GUibt9Ll2lo/s400/Basilica%2Bof%2BSaint%2BLouis,%2BKing%2Bof%2BFrance,%2Bin%2BSaint%2BLouis,%2BMissouri,%2BUSA%2B-%2Bstatue%2Bof%2BSaint%2BLouis%2BIX.jpg Edited November 13, 2009 by elizabeth09 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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