Greater Literature: England Or The United States?

[Varg]

Hemmingway is tosh. The Old Man and the Sea is THE most dull book I've ever been forced to read.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Varg

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='11 November 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1257975167' post='2000851']Poetry

England:

Shakespeare, Milton, Spencer, Donne, Blake, Wordsworth, Keats, Shelley, Byron, Tennyson, Hopkins, Hardy, D.H. Lawrence, Yeats (if you include Ireland),Thomas, Hughes, Auden, Heaney (irish)

vs.

America:

Whitman, Dickinson, Thoreau, Robinson, Stevens, Poe (in my opinion not a good poet), Plath, Eliot, Frost, Lowell, Williams, Crane

Overall, England wins however the U.S. has had more quality poets in the post-Romantic era.[/quote]
I would be more willing to concede fiction to England, but not poetry. But as I said, my vote is largely based on the fact that I tend to dislike pre-modern poetry.

[quote name='kafka' date='11 November 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1257975167' post='2000851']So maybe we have more quality in the post-modern times.
[/quote]
I agree, if by "post-modern" you mean beginning with the modern era, but not "postmodern." I'm not a huge fan of contemporary poetry (sometimes called "postmodern"). By "modern" I mean the early to mid 1900s.

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='11 November 2009 - 04:46 PM' timestamp='1257975968' post='2000860']
I would be more willing to concede fiction to England, but not poetry. But as I said, my vote is largely based on the fact that I tend to dislike pre-modern poetry.


I agree, if by "post-modern" you mean beginning with the modern era, but not "postmodern." I'm not a huge fan of contemporary poetry (sometimes called "postmodern"). By "modern" I mean the early to mid 1900s.
[/quote]
my personal taste for poetry would be a tie. I love Wallace Stevens, Frost, Eliot, Robinson, but I equally love Blake, Keats, Tennyson, Yeats. Yeats and Stevens being probably my favs.

post-modern I was referring to fiction not poetry I think. For post-romantic poetry which I guess is the modern era, I would agree America trumps England.

And I agree poetry seems to have gone downhill recently (like the rest of the world has).

Edited November 11, 2009 by kafka

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='11 November 2009 - 05:05 PM' timestamp='1257977143' post='2000875']
my personal taste for poetry would be a tie. I love Wallace Stevens, Frost, Eliot, Robinson, but I equally love Blake, Keats, Tennyson, Yeats. Yeats and Stevens being probably my favs.

post-modern I was referring to fiction not poetry I think. For post-romantic poetry which I guess is the modern era, I would agree America trumps England.

And I agree poetry seems to have gone downhill recently.
[/quote]
Have you ever read Robinson Jeffers? Great poet as well. I also like Marianne Moore, Langston Hughes, Carl Sandburg, etc. So many great poets from the early 1900s.

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='11 November 2009 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1257977264' post='2000877']
Have you ever read Robinson Jeffers? Great poet as well. I also like Marianne Moore, Langston Hughes, Carl Sandburg, etc. So many great poets from the early 1900s.
[/quote]
No I havent read Jeffers, I was referring to Edwin Arlington Robinson. Have you read the incantation Luke Havergal? Excellent.

I like some Hughes, havent read much of Moore or Sandburg.

yeah early 1900s was rich. Wallace Stevens rules!

[kafka]

which is a good Jeffers poem, I'll read one before I leave.

[Era Might]

[quote name='kafka' date='11 November 2009 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1257977623' post='2000886']
which is a good Jeffers poem, I'll read one before I leave.
[/quote]
Here is "Shine, Perishing Republic" by Jeffers:

[quote]While this America settles in the mould of its vulgarity, heavily thickening
to empire,
And protest, only a bubble in the molten mass, pops and sighs out, and the
mass hardens,
I sadly smiling remember that the flower fades to make fruit, the fruit rots
to make earth.
Out of the mother; and through the spring exultances, ripeness and decadence;
and home to the mother.

You making haste, haste on decay: not blameworthy; life is good, be it
stubbornly long or suddenly
A mortal splendor: meteors are not needed less than mountains:
shine, perishing republic.
But for my children, I would have them keep their distance from the
thickening center; corruption
Never has been compulsory, when the cities lie at the monster's feet there
are left the mountains.

And boys, be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever servant,
insufferable master.
There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught -- they say --
God, when he walked on earth.[/quote]

[scardella]

Unfortunately, I'm a fan of mindless drivel. That is all.

[kafka]

[quote name='Era Might' date='11 November 2009 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1257977759' post='2000888']
Here is "Shine, Perishing Republic" by Jeffers:
[/quote]
very clever, I like it. It rolls well, however I think the last line should be syncopated or something, I dont get a good sense of resolution. 'when on earth he walked' maybe instead of 'when he walked on earth'

sorry I shouldnt be tampering with the master

here is Luke Havergal:

Go to the western gate, Luke Havergal,
There where the vines cling crimson on the wall,
And in the twilight wait for what will come.
The leaves will whisper there of her, and some,
Like flying words, will strike you as they fall;
But go, and if you listen she will call.
Go to the western gate, Luke Havergal --
Luke Havergal.

No, there is not a dawn in eastern skies
To rift the fiery night that’s in your eyes;
But there, where western glooms are gathering,
The dark will end the dark, if anything:
God slays Himself with every leaf that flies,
And hell is more than half of paradise.
No, there is not a dawn in eastern skies --
In eastern skies.

Out of a grave I come to tell you this,
Out of a grave I come to quench the kiss
That flames upon your forehead with a glow
That blinds you to the way that you must go.
Yes, there is yet one way to where she is,
Bitter, but one that faith may never miss.
Out of a grave I come to tell you this --
To tell you this.

There is the western gate, Luke Havergal,
There are the crimson leaves upon the wall.
Go, for the winds are tearing them away, --
Nor think to riddle the dead words they say,
Nor any more to feel them as they fall;
But go, and if you trust her she will call.
There is the western gate, Luke Havergal --
Luke Havergal.

Edited November 11, 2009 by kafka

[kafka]

grim poem, but I still like it. Chow.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Varg' date='11 November 2009 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1257967704' post='2000769']
A more fair question would be European literature compared to American literature, but whatever.
[/quote]

I definitely wouldn't consider it fair to compare the US (one country with a relatively young history) to a whole continent with countries that have been around far long.

That said, I love American lit, but I think the Brits have a far more extensive body of work to choose from, and thus would get my vote.

Edited November 11, 2009 by goldenchild17

[IcePrincessKRS]

I think this is a difficult question since England's history is much longer and therefore technically probably has a lot more "greats" than America does. I wrote my thesis on Poe, so I obviously have a great appreciation for American literature, but some of my favorite classes really focused on more of the English writers so there is room in my heart for them as well. Definitely a tough call. I can't decide.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Era Might' date='11 November 2009 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1257967808' post='2000771']
I'm not familiar with the fiction of Chesterton, Lewis, and Tolkien, but I would bet that Hawthorne is a greater fiction writer than all three of them. The American Renaissance in literature was in the mid 1800s: Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, Whitman, etc. Granted, England had some great writers during that time as well (Dickens, Austen, etc.).
[/quote]
Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, and Whitman I wouldn't even put in the same league as Chesterton for fiction. They were good, mind you, but Chesterton was better. You really must read some of his fiction... The Man who was Thursday, The Ball and the Cross, Manalive... read them. You might not agree with me, but read them because you might be less inclined to make that bet once you have read Chesterton's fiction.

It is an absolute travesty that Chesterton is so much unknown today. He ought to be included more in literature curriculum IMHO

[Era Might]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='11 November 2009 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1257997595' post='2001068']
Hawthorne, Poe, Melville, and Whitman I wouldn't even put in the same league as Chesterton for fiction. They were good, mind you, but Chesterton was better. You really must read some of his fiction... The Man who was Thursday, The Ball and the Cross, Manalive... read them. You might not agree with me, but read them because you might be less inclined to make that bet once you have read Chesterton's fiction.

It is an absolute travesty that Chesterton is so much unknown today. He ought to be included more in literature curriculum IMHO
[/quote]
I doubt that after reading Chesterton's fiction, I would rate him above Hawthorne's literary generation. Hawthorne in particular is a legend. I suspect that Chesterton (and Lewis, and Tolkien) are not as well known for their literature precisely because they are not in the same league as someone like Hawthorne. They may be good, but to rank them with Hawthorne is a bold claim.

[Aloysius]

having read both, I disagree entirely. Chesterton is not as popular because he's been ignored and neglected... much the way Dickens was in Chesterton's time before Chesterton himself re-popularized him. the reasons for this are many, but none of them literary reasons IMO.