Carmelite Nuns

[HisChild]

I understand what you mean by your post insofar as adoring those who are simply human. I too have been saddened to hear others name dropping famous people, whether they're secular or ecclesial.

However, I think that perhaps you misunderstand that one is not called Reverend because of her own holiness or her own right. The office of Superior of a community is a very solemn task. I mean what a burden!

They are called to be a "little Christ" and so, by a sister calling a superior "Reverend Mother", she is not in adulation of the person in front of them but to the office that the superior is called to... whether that be for a short while (for those who elect superiors on a triennial basis, for instance) or for the lifetime of the superior. She is not reverencing the woman in front of her but for the role she has been given and that is to be the voice of Christ for that monastery - while ruling the other sisters, she's also the servant of them all.

I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges and as one on the outside looking in, can't possibly understand the culture involved.

[Orans]

[quote]
I see a proper place for the term Mother, Prioress, Sister, etc., which help with keeping necessary boundaries in a community.

But regreatably we all are human and when we go from what is necessary to what is "nice" -and we all want to be "nice" with the people who makes the decisions affecting "my" life- then we get into dysfunctional issues of which the Church and convent life is packed -as well as any human association-

If we add "reverend" to "Mother" then it should also be added to "Sister", and to everyone who shows up at the monastery door.

Being the "Mother" in a community is already a title of dignity as well as a task and a responsibility.
[/quote]

As I said before, I respect and see a proper place for terms like Mother, Prioress, Sister, etc. in a community. But I know by over thirty years living the Consecrated Life in different communities I know too well how much harm can do to religious life the little petty power plays which ARE always present in every human community, including religious communities. It is very naive to think that this is not the case in Religious Life. And it is dangerous, from my point of view, to [b]overdo[/b] with treatments and deference towards the person in authority, as much as it is when we dismiss the role of authority and of the superior in a religious community.

For a long time the Vatican called the different Offices "Sacred Congregation" ... for the Doctrine of Faith, or for the Sacraments, S. C. for Institutes of Consecrated life and Societies of Apostolic Life, and so on and so forth. You probably have noticed that this is no longer the official name. They now called the Offices: Congregation for this and for that, they omit the "Sacred".

It is ONLY in this same spirit that I am talking.

The Fathers and Mothers of the Desert didn't use those kind of titles, we have inherited the accumulation of treatments and titles from much later times of the Church, and not precisely from its best and holiest times. Besides usually it is not from Saints that this kind of traditions come. We can speak of Saint Teresa of Avila, whose name in religion as a Carmelita was Doña Teresa de Cepeda y Ahumada, and that's how she signed everything ... until she established the Reform. From that moment on she dropped all her titles to sign [b]Teresa de Jesús[/b]. She was and is a Mother in the Church, for ever, and a Doctor of the Church. But she called forth simplicity in her daughters and set an example with a very familiar and natural way of relating in the community, as Mother and Sisters, without falling into excess from one extreme or the other

I do see as regression and contrary to a healthy spiritual journey -and even to the Gospel- the kind of religious practices that tend to keep people childish instead of childlike, and the person of the superior as something near to divine. You can't imagine to what pains people go in order to retain the power of a Prioress in a community. Especially when people don't feel that they have real authority in themselves except when they have the role of superior.

English is not my first language and it is always difficult for me to express myself. I may not be using the appropriate words or examples and I apologize for that, but I still consider that this is an important topic. And the way I see some people reacting to it speaks, I think, of the need to bring it to the discussion.



Peace!

[Orans]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='19 November 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1258684766' post='2005974']
We have great reverence for religious because they are consecrated to God. I think to suggest that its iproper to call a superior "reverend" is silly.
[/quote]
All religious are consecrated to God, not only superiors. That is exactly my point. Not only the superior.

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='19 November 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1258684766' post='2005974']
I'm also wondering why you posted an article that is obviously from a non-Catholic view point.
[/quote]
I posted this article because it shows the extreme of the point that I've brought to the discussion. But I do believe that some human and psychological dynamics are the same, only expressed differently according to the cultural frame.

Also I posted it because of my limitation in expressing myself.

[Orans]

[quote name='HisChild' date='19 November 2009 - 09:45 PM' timestamp='1258685107' post='2005980']
I understand what you mean by your post insofar as adoring those who are simply human. I too have been saddened to hear others name dropping famous people, whether they're secular or ecclesial.

However, I think that perhaps you misunderstand that one is not called Reverend because of her own holiness or her own right. The office of Superior of a community is a very solemn task. I mean what a burden!

They are called to be a "little Christ" and so, by a sister calling a superior "Reverend Mother", she is not in adulation of the person in front of them but to the office that the superior is called to... whether that be for a short while (for those who elect superiors on a triennial basis, for instance) or for the lifetime of the superior. She is not reverencing the woman in front of her but for the role she has been given and that is to be the voice of Christ for that monastery - while ruling the other sisters, she's also the servant of them all.

I think you're trying to compare apples to oranges and as one on the outside looking in, can't possibly understand the culture involved.
[/quote]

Just let me clarify that I am not "as one on the outside looking in". I am and have been in Consecrated Life for many years even though I don't sign as "sister", I am a Sister in the Catholic Church in very good standing with my superiors.

So it is not because of lack of appreciation, but because through a lot of experience I see a distortion in the abuse of something that in its proper measure is a value and a good one.

We may disagree around this, and that's fine. I'm simply sharing my experience and point of view because it may be good for some people to hear other opinion than the one generally accepted in the phorum.

Christ is not only in the superior. And a religious cannot listen to Christ ONLY speaking in the superior, because that is really distorted. At the same time I think that a religiious who doesn't listen to the superior is probably not listening to Christ at all.

Peace!

[HisChild]

Orans,

Up until this point, I did not know that you were a consecrated religious. However, even saying that, you are still more than likely on the outside looking in.

I do not know which congregation you are in. I noticed on your profile page you have us link to two YouTube videos. There is a red habited sister in the video. I do not know if that is you or maybe another sister in your congregation. The answer to that question would be good for ANOTHER thread as first of all, I'd chance to say that few on here, if any, are aware of which congregation that sister/you belongs to and second of all, since this thread talks about Carmelite nuns, it would be lost in the fray of the topic of this thread.

So, again, this is a [u]cloistered Carmelite nun [/u]thread...unless you are a [u]cloistered Carmelite nun[/u], then yes, you are on the outside looking in.

Let me explain it this way: in some orders, the scapular is simply a part of the habit. It evolved first as an apron and now, just 'is'. In other orders, the scapular has significant Marian meaning. It's sacred. It is verboten to even sit on it. One must pull it to the side. Do those sisters who consider it a mere part of their habit scoff at those whose scapular have a more sacred meaning, and is indeed a sacramental? No, it's a different 'culture' and each sister just knows it holds a different meaning for different orders.

You may have had a poor experience with the word 'Reverend' and that's fine. (Actually, if you've had a poor experience, that's not 'fine', but that's for another time and place as well.) That's your experience in your community and perhaps in another community as well, but to make a blanket statement and say that if ANYONE callsl their superior 'Reverend Mother' it is somehow an abuse or improper is a broad sweeping generalization which is inappropriate. It also makes you sound very bitter, which is probably not how you wish to sound.

You're correct that Christ is not ONLY in the superior. He is in all God's children. However, we would look silly if we went around bowing to or kissing the cloak of everyone we saw on the street! But you're missing the point, and again, from your limited, albeit admirable, 30 years of vowed life, you can only speak to what you see or what you've experienced in your community.

I know in Carmel, because of how it was explained to me from several Carmelite nuns when I wrote or visited as well as those who were in Carmel and no longer are -and I know when I was in the PCPA - calling the superior Reverend Mother was a sign of respect to the [b]office[/b] the sister was burdened with, as a sign of respect of the Christ in her as a part of her [b]office[/b]. Saying that one gives the SISTER more respect, adoration, adulation is akin to a non-Catholic saying that Catholics worship saints. It's highly exaggerated and missing the full picture.

You said we could 'agree to disagree', but I don't think that's the case here. You're attempting to bring a non-Carmelite experience onto a Carmelite thread. And I'm not saying that you don't have a voice on this thread, but you should at least preface that your experience is non-Carmelite. Now, have there been abuses of the superior's office? Sure! In Carmel? Maybe! But I don't think it stems from calling that superior 'Reverend Mother'. I would hazard a guess and say that while words and/or titles have power, if any abuses occurred by the superior while she was in office, it was perhaps more because of the power of the office itself and not because her sisters called her 'Reverend'. Unfortunately, even if that sister was called Sister Superior she probably would have made the same mistakes/abuses.

God bless you on your journey, Sister, and I hope you find peace in your religious life in what seems to be for you a delicate and upsetting topic.

[HisChild]

[quote name='Orans' date='19 November 2009 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1258694405' post='2006104']

We can speak of Saint Teresa of Avila, whose name in religion as a Carmelita was Doña Teresa de Cepeda y Ahumada, and that's how she signed everything ... until she established the Reform. From that moment on she dropped all her titles to sign [b]Teresa de Jesús[/b]. She was and is a Mother in the Church, for ever, and a Doctor of the Church. But she called forth simplicity in her daughters and set an example with a very familiar and natural way of relating in the community, as Mother and Sisters, without falling into excess from one extreme or the other.


[/quote]

I think you misread Teresa of Jesus or are only mentioning one aspect of her desire to reform. I've many of her books as she's my favorite saint and I've been studying my spiritual mother for about 10 years now. Incidentally I just watched the 8 part series of her life that was made in Spain in the 80s. I don't assume to know everything about her life, I just want to point out 'the rest of the story' as Mr. Harvey used to be fond of saying.

Yes, she went from writing Doña Teresa to simply Teresa, because Doña is for Lady, a lofty title that she felt NO nun should have, because of the meaning that was attached to it during her time. To the outside world, she was just Teresa and that was how she wished to be known to the outside world, even though the Church hierarchy all through her life would call her Mother Teresa. While there were many who, when she'd visit their town to found a new monastery would jeer at her, many others would look at her and approach her as if she were already canonized, so yes, she wanted the outside world to see that she was just this simple woman named Teresa. No Doña for her.

While she signed her correspondence as Teresa of Jesus, she was constantly calling her sisters 'my child', 'my daughter' and they were always calling her 'my mother'. In fact, they were terribly protective of her, her spiritual daughters. Those of the Calced Carmelites, when she visited them, they would show her disrespect by NOT calling her Mother (a term those sisters didn't consider as familial but a title to acknowledge her office), because they didn't recognize that she was their superior, even when she was sent back to Incarnacion to BE their superior. That's why she placed the statue of the Virgin on the superior's seat, to show those sisters that while she filled the office of superior as a person, the true superior was Mary, and thus, of Christ her Son. She was just their representative on earth. And even when they started to call her their superior, she knew they had no respect for the office as they were still doing whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. They wanted to live their own lives, not to surrender to Christ! They only had respect for the office of superior when the superior in the office agreed with their individualism.

When you speak of her simplicity, you are correct. She wanted to reform the excesses she saw in the Spanish Carmels. Their habits weren't uniform, some sisters had palatial quarters while others lived in simple cells. The cloister was always being breached by visitors of various pomp. She wanted them to place Jesus first and if they were going to enter religious life, to actually do so. She wanted a more simple, even familial bond with her sisters. This is why she also decreased the number of sisters allowed in her Carmels to 13. It's now 21, but she had originally said that 13 was a good number, 'for Jesus and His Apostles'. In that smaller community they could be a true family, which is why 'Mother' had an even greater significance there.

Words are just words until you place meaning behind them. I could call my mother 'Mother' but unless I had respect for her, it wouldn't have meaning, just a word. In the same respect, I could enter a community and call my superior 'Reverend Mother' but unless I had a true understanding and respect of her office, it would just be lip service.

[Two Hearts]

With gentle respect, HisChild, as you are not now or ever have been a [b]vowed[/b][i][/i] cloistered Carmelite, you are "from the outside looking in" as well. Orans is a consecrated religious and therefore does have insight.

Perhaps you do not realize how condescending your posts (and others) can be at times; It happens often on this Phorum and seems to be the general tone, always encased in words meant to sound kind - but never truly kind. Please try not to be so quick to judge - I feel sure that is not anyone's intent.

Friends, until one lives enclosed consecrated life in any form for [b]many years[/b][i][/i], one cannot possibly understand the way of life beyond personal opinion, rather than authority. Therefore, much of what is shared in these forums is nothing more than opinions not based on any reality of life lived. A few weeks or months, or even 2 or 3 years, does not allow the same experience as one who has lived solemn vows for many years.

United in prayer,
Your little sister in Jesus.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Two Hearts

[Indwelling Trinity]

Dear All:

I have been following this thread for some time but have been mostly silent. I now speak openly as one who has been a Cloistered Carmelite and a Carmelite hermit for a number of years. So I am speaking from the inside of Cloistered Carmelite life and my own personal experience of Carmel.


I have wanted to jump in but how can you make people understand the heart of Carmel? It is an intuitive spiritual knowledge put in ones heart. Believe me I am not trying to be elitist by any means, for even to me Carmel is enveloped in a deep and silent mystery of love. It makes me only wish to enter more deeply into it each day. Even after all these years Carmel is as fresh and new as the day i first discovered it, for Carmel is truly hidden with Christ in God as we too are called to be.

When I see some of the opinions regarding the terms Mother or reverend Mother it makes me sad, such love and respect comes not only from the respect we hold our superiors but even so much much more deeply from loving surrender to God in the person of our superior. In Carmel such surrender was always sweet even when what was asked seemed harsh because of the limitations of the superior. Sweet because it was yet another chance to surrender in love to He who is Love. It is love which make such subordination sweet but it takes time to get there. It was much harder for me when I was younger for fear of losing my independence or shame at being subservient; but as I grew older I came to understand it's beauty and in understanding it I realized that what was childish was my resistance and what was child like was my surrender. Then, like a floogate opened, the wisdom of God began to pour in transforming everything in my life. I myself am not wise by any means but the wisdom giving of God is a gift of love drawing us ever more strongly each day into a deeper loving relationship between that which is nothing and He who is all.

It is true Our Holy Mother Teresa signed herself as Teresa of Jesus and not Mother, but in the Monastery to her sisters she was Mother and her sisters she called My sisters and My daughters. She knew a Mother's love; When to correct, when to comfort when to be strong and when to hold a sister close to her heart. As a Mother she did this so all her daughters might grow in perfection in that total detachment and childlike simplicity that frees us up to be solely for Jesus. And so yes the sisters revered, her as God shone brightly through her as a beautiful stained glass. She became a reflection of God but also to her sisters she became a mirror of all they could be in Him by pointing to Him alone.

The Carmelite monastery is a small spiritual family with Christ as it's head, personified in the person of the superior. The superior has human frailty like all but even in that I find all the more reason to revere her because it allows me to love on a supernatural level and not only an affective level and thus my obedience is sanctified for it is Him I am loving not only in my obedience to my superior but also to the same degree that I bear the same supernatural love for my sisters and all who I meet.

In God's economy, nothing is wasted for bringing souls to Him and in one tiny act of supernatural love a multitude of sins of ignoring God can be atoned for. And so for me, the tradition of Carmel still holds life even in the little practice of having the humility to refer to my superior as reverend Mother. Every tiny rubric and custom in Carmel is meant to be a means of grace in coming closer to God, but they are only meaningful if we have the eyes to see rightly and the courage to let go and enter into the mystery hidden behind them and that mystery is Love. For only Love make everything meaningful, beautiful and true.

So Yes, my prioress is Reverend Mother or just a loving Mother and I am her daughter. I am not ashamed of this any more as I was when i was young. Then it was so very difficult to humble myself to another whether it was my superior or my sisters. Now after about thirty years of religious life, that which at first was bitter has become sweet for in that obedience and surrender I become more like my spouse who honored His Father as Son and who even honored those less worthy of such honor for the sake of the Father, becoming obedient to death, death on the cross. In total abject humility and obedience He accomplished salvation for us and I too wish to imitate that obedience and reverence and surrender whether or not my superior is Holy or with many faults.

Yes I have suffered at the hand of superiors who were less than perfect or limited in their understanding but in every surrender even amidst tears was the joy of giving to Jesus That same obedience He gave to His father albeit on a less than perfect level than my master. And so I now long for this obedience and to give this respect for i long now to become less and less so that He may become more and more. I choose to be childlike now and not childish, to learn to be more humble and more loving and prayerful.

I am not a woman without experience of the outside world. God gave me a degree in medicine and advanced studies in clinical psychology so I know how to stand on my own two feet without fawning over my superior. But I choose to reverence her in Christ. Yes for me she as well as my sisters are the voice of God. Even now as a Carmelite hermit I still open my heart to my Prioress as simply as a child and in obedience to her know true freedom and joy.

To look at things from only a natural standpoint is to miss the message. The message is to enter totally into the life of Jesus and thus be transformed into His image giving love for Love. Only then can I truly enter into the mystery of Carmel which is total abandonment to God in simplicity, detachment and love.

In each cell in Carmel is an empty cross. It is there we must become transfixed with our beloved. Carmel is the means for me of doing so. So each custom and each rubric becomes a way of loving and being transformed. Offering love for Love.

I cannot say that this is the way for everyone; but for me it is the royal road of the cross the road my beloved chose to travel. I wish only to follow in His footsteps wherever that may lead and reverence obedience and humilty is part of the path of Carmel and union with God. Until I surrendered I knew no joy, now having learned the secret of surrender I only wish to do so more and more for in it is found the peace and joy that this world cannot give.

Please know that it is true that the burden of being a superior and a Mother is great for like Jesus she must give her life for her sisters seeing than none may be lost. It is much easier for a superior to give the sisters what they want than to make a stand and give them what they need in order to grow into True women of God and true contemplatives. Sometimes that requires a strong hand to open another's eyes. And so it takes much courage for a superior to stand firm. I have seen my superiors cry out of longing to be free of such responsibility. many would much rather be silently in the background obeying others themselves. That is their cross and it is not a light one so if the superior at times is treated with more loving attention it is because we her sisters know her pain and sometimes isolation of her office. Let us not judge things at face value for what may seem "celebrity worship" may only be the response of a loving community who wishes to love and console the one who must lead.



Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[Two Hearts]

Indwelling Trinity,

Thank you for the most beautiful post I've ever read on these forums. How lovely...and so very true, I think, for most enclosed sisters.

Lovingly,
Two Hearts

[HisChild]

Two Hearts, on 20 November 2009 - 08:21 AM, said:
With gentle respect, HisChild, as you are not now or ever have been a vowed cloistered Carmelite, you are "from the outside looking in" as well. Orans is a consecrated religious and therefore does have insight.

Perhaps you do not realize how condescending your posts (and others) can be at times; It happens often on this Phorum and seems to be the general tone, always encased in words meant to sound kind - but never truly kind. Please try not to be so quick to judge - I feel sure that is not anyone's intent.

Friends, until one lives enclosed consecrated life in any form for many years, one cannot possibly understand the way of life beyond personal opinion, rather than authority. Therefore, much of what is shared in these forums is nothing more than opinions not based on any reality of life lived. A few weeks or months, or even 2 or 3 years, does not allow the same experience as one who has lived solemn vows for many years.

United in prayer,
Your little sister in Jesus.



TwoHearts,

Never have I said that I was on the inside. In fact if you read the post you will see that I write exactly where I've received my information (with Indwelling Trinity being one of those sisters). I still stand behind my statement that it isn't appropriate to make generalizations about EVERY monastery even if you have been in religious life for many years. It's still limited to only that one community. For instance, look at the more "liberal" communities and they'll have a far different perspective of religious life than a more "conservative" one... everything from community life to the habit to even community hierarchy. Does it make one wrong? Not necessarily. Just limited in perception.

Speaking of perception, you're right: my intent is not to be unkind. Mea culpable for my own
inarticulate way of communicating my meaning. But one must also consider not only this fallible medium of the written word as well as for your own perception as well.

I rarely wrap my speech in flowery words and tend to be direct. In that way meaning does not get lost in ambiguities. But please do not assign tone to my or any other's post before you're sure what that tone really is because then you risk creating something that truly isn't there.

Indwelling Trinity,

As usual you are the gentle spirit to my fiery flame. There are times you tell me I say things in ways you cannot. Today you say what I've been unable to. Grazie, my dear friend and sister in Christ.

In Christ,

HisChild

[HisChild]

For some reason the box surrounding the quote in the above post disappeared in cyberspace. Hope you all can still read it.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='HisChild' date='20 November 2009 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1258736749' post='2006239']
Two Hearts, on 20 November 2009 - 08:21 AM, said:
With gentle respect, HisChild, as you are not now or ever have been a vowed cloistered Carmelite, you are "from the outside looking in" as well. Orans is a consecrated religious and therefore does have insight.

Perhaps you do not realize how condescending your posts (and others) can be at times; It happens often on this Phorum and seems to be the general tone, always encased in words meant to sound kind - but never truly kind. Please try not to be so quick to judge - I feel sure that is not anyone's intent.

Friends, until one lives enclosed consecrated life in any form for many years, one cannot possibly understand the way of life beyond personal opinion, rather than authority. Therefore, much of what is shared in these forums is nothing more than opinions not based on any reality of life lived. A few weeks or months, or even 2 or 3 years, does not allow the same experience as one who has lived solemn vows for many years.

United in prayer,
Your little sister in Jesus.



TwoHearts,

Never have I said that I was on the inside. In fact if you read the post you will see that I write exactly where I've received my information (with Indwelling Trinity being one of those sisters). I still stand behind my statement that it isn't appropriate to make generalizations about EVERY monastery even if you have been in religious life for many years. It's still limited to only that one community. For instance, look at the more "liberal" communities and they'll have a far different perspective of religious life than a more "conservative" one... everything from community life to the habit to even community hierarchy. Does it make one wrong? Not necessarily. Just limited in perception.

Speaking of perception, you're right: my intent is not to be unkind. Mea culpable for my own
inarticulate way of communicating my meaning. But one must also consider not only this fallible medium of the written word as well as for your own perception as well.

I rarely wrap my speech in flowery words and tend to be direct. In that way meaning does not get lost in ambiguities. But please do not assign tone to my or any other's post before you're sure what that tone really is because then you risk creating something that truly isn't there.

Indwelling Trinity,

As usual you are the gentle spirit to my fiery flame. There are times you tell me I say things in ways you cannot. Today you say what I've been unable to. Grazie, my dear friend and sister in Christ.

In Christ,

HisChild
[/quote]


Prego sorella mia!

Indwelling Trinity

[Two Hearts]

[quote]Never have I said that I was on the inside. In fact if you read the post you will see that I write exactly where I've received my information (with Indwelling Trinity being one of those sisters). I still stand behind my statement that it isn't appropriate to make generalizations about EVERY monastery even if you have been in religious life for many years. It's still limited to only that one community. For instance, look at the more "liberal" communities and they'll have a far different perspective of religious life than a more "conservative" one... everything from community life to the habit to even community hierarchy. Does it make one wrong? Not necessarily. Just limited in perception.

Speaking of perception, you're right: my intent is not to be unkind. Mea culpable for my own
inarticulate way of communicating my meaning. But one must also consider not only this fallible medium of the written word as well as for your own perception as well.

I rarely wrap my speech in flowery words and tend to be direct. In that way meaning does not get lost in ambiguities. [b]But please do not assign tone to my or any other's post before you're sure what that tone really is because then you risk creating something that truly isn't there.[/b][/quote]

I am terribly sorry, but it seems you have misunderstood my post. So as not cause more misunderstanding it is best not to say more. As to the tone of a post...it is not myself assigning the tone, but hearing the tone - I interpret your words by how they are written and so words and style provide the tone. As a long time lurker, I can only share my experience and how I have generally found this forum to be - a lack of kindness and charity to anyone who is not in union with whatever is posted. You may not agree, but it is my experience; It makes one very hesitant to ever post at all.

May God bless you always.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Two Hearts

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Two Hearts' date='20 November 2009 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1258739070' post='2006249']
I am terribly sorry, but it seems you have misunderstood my post. So as not cause more misunderstanding it is best not to say more. As to the tone of a post...it is not myself assigning the tone, but hearing the tone - I interpret your words by how they are written and so words and style provide the tone. As a long time lurker, I can only share my experience and how I have generally found this forum to be - a lack of kindness and charity to anyone who is not in union with whatever is posted. You may not agree, but it is my experience; It makes one very hesitant to ever post at all.

May God bless you always.
[/quote]

Dear Two Hearts:

Please do not be afraid to post if anything bring what is in your heart that makes for truth and peace. You have a gift to offer others too in your own special way as does His child. we each bring something to the table in our sharing and we don't always get it right. Myself included. Bring your gifts and insights just as the others do for you will never know but for someone out there you may be the voice of God.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[HisChild]

I thoroughly agree with Indwelling Trinity. You have gifts that shoudn't be placed under a bushel basket as the saying goes.

I did not mean to sound unkind or any other way you may have taken my post so as to say you will no longer post. I will try to say it another way. In my previous degree in communication, I studied in non verbal communication. Written communication in all its forms is incredibly limited. You cannot see gestures or facial expressions. And truly even then one is limited. Have you ever been in a situation where you're talking to someone else, maybe at work, and a third person comes up and says something maybe outlandish or in such a way that the other person says after the third person left, "was she serious?". And you have to tell the person that, no, she wasn't serious, that's just her sense of humor?

Or have you ever thought a song meant one thing only to listen to the musician's interview to discover you were way off?

I know it may be a poor analogy but my point is that communication involves the giving/sending and the receiving. Both sides are limited to the abilities of each. One cannot look at even a sentence objectively. There is past bias or interpretation that may or may not agree with the intent of the writer.

If you feel a post says something, unless it's overtly said and you're 100% sure, it is your responsibility to ask for clarification just as it is the duty of the sender to clarify... Something that I may not have done with Orans, so if I misunderstood you too, Sister, I do apologize.

Edited November 20, 2009 by HisChild