Carmelite Nuns

[HisChild]

For the Order of Discalced Carmelites I have seen, either through personal experience/visits, correspondence or hearsay from others, good and holy Carmels on both sides of the Constitutional Divide. (pun intended)

As an aside, for those not aware of what I'm talking about, in the late 80s the OCD Constitutions were being revised. Some took exception to the fact that the first set of Constitutions were ratified without being approved by many of the Carmels. Indeed, without some of them even being aware of their existence at all. So the first set were called the 1990s and the second set, which were rewritten and approved, were nicknamed the 1991s. There are very few differences between the two, to be honest. One group (the 1990s) 'reports' (although each Carmel is autonomous) to the Vatican and the other to the Carmelite Fathers. Here's a lengthy explanation should you wish it http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58540

There are some small rubrics that may not be listed in the 1991s Carmels. Some who observe the 1991s as well might go out (the Prioress or Novice Mistress) to an association meeting, etc. There has been some controversy in the past because some feel that the 'best' Carmels are those in the 1990s and the not so good ones are in the 1991s group. In all actuality that's not so and I've seen good and bad things in each.

There are several associations of Carmels, where groups have joined forces, so to speak. There's the St Teresa Association, CCA (Carmelite Communities Associated), Mary Queen of Carmel Association and I think St Joseph Association but I could be wrong about that last one. There are a few that don't have an association at all. There are some more liberal or progressive Carmels who choose to no longer wear the habit, keep the grille in their parlors and chapels and are not strictly enclosed. Most of those Carmels one can find in their own association... I think they're all CCA Carmels or not associated. The rest all wear habits although there's a small handful that have modified the toque and veil.

I've actually experienced good and bad on both sides of the fence. I won't name any because that's not my purpose for starting this thread. It's to just reiterate that there are holy Carmels observing each constitutions. I've personally corresponded either by letter or in person with 3 1991 Carmels and asked why they chose to go with the 1991. All three said that in everyday living they really haven't made any changes. But the 1991 allows them that ability to do so should they feel the need down the road. The 1990 does not allow this with pretty much anything. At all. And any decision rests solely on the shoulders of the prioress, instead of a small council or with those who've made solemn vows. I know Margaret Clare in the earlier post which she so thoroughly and lovingly prepared mentioned that St Teresa wanted her Carmels to allow the prioress to have the final say and I agree with this. But in all I've read of this great saint, I also think it was because she was scandalized by the way the Incarnation Carmel was operating with guests coming to and fro at all hours, and each sister doing whatever she wanted. She wanted a firm government, so to speak and not a bunch of women making it the almost anarchic atmosphere it was.

Anyway, as I started to say before my flawed history lesson ( ) is that I've noticed there to be holy and good Carmels regardless of observance. But I've also noticed some of these holy Carmels having to merge with others or those who haven't had a vocation (that stayed) for years. Yes, I know there are less vocations to the cloistered life, but I wanted to toss out this question on which to speculate: why?

Why do you think that some Carmels haven't had a vocation in years and some have had to close? I know of a Carmel, for instance, that just merged with San Francisco. And Salt Lake City's youngest (in Carmel, not in age) has been there 10 years!

Do you think it's because they're not well known? Or perhaps women aren't courageous enough to go the strictly cloistered route? Is it a reflection of the Carmelite life? Or what? I just find that befuddling. Now, it could very well be this way in other cloisters, but I've limited experience with most other orders so I don't know.

[AccountDeleted]

Some communities are actually doing very well and are making foundations because they are so full. It might be easier to ask why these ones are succeeding? What is it that is making them attractive to women, and more than that, what is it that is keeping women in the monastery once they enter? I have been in three Carmelite monasteries now and it seems to me that all three have had women come and try them out, but none of these communities have had anyone stay in a long time (whether they leave or are asked to leave isn't the point).

I think we can take a look at that Poor Clare community in Spain (another thread) that is overflowing with vocations to see that women are not afraid of the cloistered life. But the spirit of the foundress (Carmelite or Franciscan or Dominican or whatever) and the working of the Holy Spirit need to be really present.

So who here has been to visit these Carmels that are having an increase in vocations? What did you notice about them that was so attractive? Why do they think they are doing so well?

[Indwelling Trinity]

Whao! what actually is the topic? It feels like it is coming out of left field. Am I missing something?

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='11 November 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1257864767' post='1999464']
Whao! what actually is the topic? It feels like it is coming out of left field. Am I missing something?

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

I read it as sheer curiosity about why some communities have vocations these days and others don't. Why? What are you reading into it that I am missing?

[brightsadness]

Do you think that the majority of women discerning a vocation really know about this in the beginning or that 1990/1991 is a deciding point? I know little about Carmelites and am just beginning communication with a monastery (not Carmelite)and speak out of ignorance. But it's the reality I experience of a particular community--and they of me--that will be the deciding factor of where and if, I go further. Point of clarity- I am not including the liberal communities in this statement. They may be very good but I would not be a good fit.

Edited November 10, 2009 by brightsadness

[humbleheart]

Before I became unwell I was discerning with a Poor Clare community. When I began corresponding with them, I didn't know about the distinctions between different communities of Poor Clares (Colettines, Urbanists, etc.) and the information didn't affect my discernment one way or the other when I found out. In my experience, people feel an attraction to a specific community - how that community might differ from others in the same order is something of an academic question.

[AccountDeleted]

I don't think many people at all really understand about Carmelite constitutions, and even those who do have different opinions of what it means. I had formation in two differetn 1991s and one 1990 Carmel, and all of them saw the constitution issue slightly differently. Carmel has been through many years of this, from the 1928 (written by Americans) constitutions, to the Declarations and then onto the 1990 (based on the 1581) and the 1991 (based more on the Declarations). Personally, I don't think it matters which one of these are followed, as long as the community is trying to follow the spirit of the foundress and be faithful to the Magesterium.

There are wonderful communities everywhere, and the constitutions just shouldn't be an issue, especially in the beginning stages of discernment. There are many more issues that really matter.

And I only know about Carmel because I was a Carmelite. As humbleheart points out, the Poor Clares also have their different versions of the life, and not many people know about this before they really start discerning either.

The Holy Spirit has to be the guide, and some really good spiritual direction!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1257865534' post='1999470']
I read it as sheer curiosity about why some communities have vocations these days and others don't. Why? What are you reading into it that I am missing?
[/quote]

Oh OK... No i am not reading anything into it just wanted to know what the topic was really all about?
I agree with His Child that there are many good communities on bot sides of the equations.

I think for some the reason they may not be getting more vocations is because the mix of personalities in a particular Carmel. Also the Prioresses attitude has a lot to do with it. Carmels being such small communities tend to have less to choose from when it comes to leadership.

Also, there are a number of Carmels that feel if they do not receive a vocation that fits specifically into their community, they rather have no vocations and go down with the ship rather than take someone who might change the chemistry of the community. I have heard this from three separate prioresses in the past. But that is just a small reason among many.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited November 10, 2009 by Indwelling Trinity

[Antoniette]

This is a hard one. Two 1990's that I know of personally are Brooklyn and Dallas. Dallas seems to generate tremendous interest.I think at one point I read here there was a waiting list as they wanted to form the 4 novices they had at the time properly, and so weren't taking new postulants immediately. It is a beautiful structure, I would say Spanish in style, but very strict according to the rule (a sister friend of mine attests to that). Yet Brooklyn, refounded from Buffalo-which has been strong enough to make two foundations, and also extremely observant in the rule, right now has one novice about to be simply professed. Why Dallas is so strong, and I mean to add, deservedly so, is anyone answer. It could even even be in the tone of the prioress's initial response, or the rapidity of response. From what I observed here, some Carmels take a long time to answer. In this age of internet, people's focus is limited, obviously the quick response generates more interest.

Of course nothing can seem to top Valpairiso Carmel. That strict Tridentine community was bursting at the seams, refounding Elysburg Carmel, and chock full of white veils. I think the Latin Mass, and adherence and accepting of the magisterum of the church obviously has everything to do with that.

I also agree there are wonderful 1991's too. I can't understand why Philadelphia isn't turning them away. It is another beautiful monastery, an absolutely wonderful prioress in Mother Barbara, fully habited, they even sponsor a tridentine mass fairly regulary, as does Dallas, and Brooklyn just instituted a monthly one.

Somehow I feel the answer lies in exposure and obedience. The more people know of the working of the Holy Spirit and adherence to the spirit of the rule of Carmel, the more young women will be attracted. I think the same applies to Carmels abroad. I see absolutely nothing "Non Kosher" about 1990 St. Helen's, except it is isolated in the woods, and doesn't communicate other than by snail mail. I am not sure how many inquiries they get, yet they also have a wonderful prioress in Mother Paula.

Those are my opinions, if anyone has the "right answer" please tell some of those aging out Carmels!

[HisChild]

Well it's not really from left field. I saw the beautiful SLC Carmel and the articles posted on another thread about them and how they're not getting vocations. I also saw an earlier thread mentioning a Carmel in CA that had to merge with SF, CA.

I've also met and/or seen on here and in person some who focus only on one constitution observance or the other and just felt like being a champion of Carmelite vocations, getting word out that there are many good Carmels out there from either 1990 or 1991 constitutions. I know some have mentioned that many probably don't understand the differences but with my limited exposure to other discerners of Carmel, I wasn't sure if that was a more prevalent thought.

And to facilitate the thread I thought it would also be good to talk about vocations in general to cloistered life although with an emphasis on Carmel.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and posts. I will be reading them more thoroughly when I get home tonight.

In Christ,

HisChild

Edited November 10, 2009 by HisChild

[elizabeth09]

Some families have only have 2 children (most families, but not all) today or they do not want any children.

[vee]

I think one of the reasons could be at the diocesan level. Does a diocese offer prayers for vocations to the priesthood [u]and[/u] religious life? Do they have resources ready for young women in particular who might be interested in religious life? Of course we need priests however it seems to me some dioceses only focus on promoting that particular vocation because who would want to be a monk or nun that`s sooo outdated!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='elizabeth09' date='11 November 2009 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1257894213' post='1999884']
Some families have only have 2 children (most families, but not all) today or they do not want any children.
[/quote]

And in those smaller Catholic families, how many are stressing the importance of religious life or the priesthood anymore? Once upon a time it was considered an honour to have a child who was a priest or nun, but today it is hardly mentioned in many families. I know that my brother's children were raised Catholic, and even attended Catholic school, but I don't think anyone at home or at school ever even raised the idea of becoming a religious to them! Of course the schools aren't run by nuns anymore either! A lot of things have changed, and not necessarily for the better!

Edited November 11, 2009 by nunsense

[Orans]

I am glad to see in this thread an opinion that overcomes the often easy judgment on communities -seen in our phorum-, that the more traditional, conservative, and unchanged the better. And yet all and every holy founder and foundress in the Church has certainly not been a "conservative", they have always come up with some newness that the Spirit inspired at the moment because it was needed to fill a gap or balance a tendency. This is what Vatican II was also, a call to renewal in the spirit of the Gospel and the original -and always creative- inspiration of the founders. The invitation was to look back at the source, at the charism -or gift of Grace- and to incarnate it in modern or contemporary expressions. Without losing the values of course.

But this is easier said than done. It is easy to cut shorter a habit, to tear down walls or grilles, but what else is needed ... if anything?? Or maybe even that is not necessary at all, so that we can just rewrite our documents with wording according to Vat II and leave everything the same ... for the sake of not making mistakes??

For a young vocation to persevere in contemplative life the person needs to find meaning and fulfilment in spite of challenges and difficulties ... And I think this demands depth, maturity, and genuine spiritual life in the members already in the community. And this is not that easy to find in every small, cloistered, autonomous monastery.

The Church -Vatican documents instructions- have tried for decades to get nuns step down from the first and foremost rule of autonomy of the individual monasteries. We can see that religious families that have succeded in creating structures beyond the monastery are being blessed -I can mention the Trappistines, and some federations of Dominicans as an example.

If we look at the new cloistered families they are no longer Orders with autonomous monasteries but Congregations with a central government -superior general- and common noviciate. These Institutes, like the Sisters of Bethlehem and the Assumption of the Virgin and St. Bruno; or the Contemplative Sisters of St. John, and others, are thriving and having many vocations.

I also think that the real renewal of contemplative life is still to be done. Often what can be found is, either a rigidity of sticking to the Rule in spite of stepping on real human beings, or the other end of the pendulun where the individual human being becomes the Rule. How to find the balance, the wisdom in between those extremes, when as religious and contemplatives we are to profess the extremes of radical love that Jesus lived and showed us? We need anonymous saints to do it, people passionately in love with God and with a particular religious family. When we have this -and we have it here and there- then individual monasteries thrive, somehow the "smell" of the Spirit es too fragrant to be overlooked.

Of course there are many other things playing in this puzzle -some already mentioned- but I think we all need to commit ourselves, individually and personally, to following the Gospel -here and now- with greater commitment and risk taking in order to really overcome the pull of our secular society, for ourselves and for others who will come after us.

My thing is, let's take the torch and run the race . The Spirit is the Flame![img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]

[HisChild]

[quote name='nunsense' date='10 November 2009 - 07:48 AM' timestamp='1257864480' post='1999462']
Some communities are actually doing very well and are making foundations because they are so full. It might be easier to ask why these ones are succeeding? What is it that is making them attractive to women, and more than that, what is it that is keeping women in the monastery once they enter? I have been in three Carmelite monasteries now and it seems to me that all three have had women come and try them out, but none of these communities have had anyone stay in a long time (whether they leave or are asked to leave isn't the point).

I think we can take a look at that Poor Clare community in Spain (another thread) that is overflowing with vocations to see that women are not afraid of the cloistered life. But the spirit of the foundress (Carmelite or Franciscan or Dominican or whatever) and the working of the Holy Spirit need to be really present.

So who here has been to visit these Carmels that are having an increase in vocations? What did you notice about them that was so attractive? Why do they think they are doing so well?
[/quote]

Yes, I thoroughly agree with your post. What is making those women stay? And don't you just adore the Poor Clares in Spain? As soon as I read about them and saw their video, I wished for an explosion in contemplative life here in the States.

[quote name='brightsadness' date='10 November 2009 - 08:23 AM' timestamp='1257866584' post='1999480']
Do you think that the majority of women discerning a vocation really know about this in the beginning or that 1990/1991 is a deciding point? I know little about Carmelites and am just beginning communication with a monastery (not Carmelite)and speak out of ignorance. But it's the reality I experience of a particular community--and they of me--that will be the deciding factor of where and if, I go further. Point of clarity- I am not including the liberal communities in this statement. They may be very good but I would not be a good fit.
[/quote]

Some may not know of the 1990/1991 distinction but there are many that do know and I just wasn't sure if it did play a role in decision making. As in, "I will only write to or visit a 1991 Carmel".

[quote name='humbleheart' date='10 November 2009 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1257867089' post='1999483']
Before I became unwell I was discerning with a Poor Clare community. When I began corresponding with them, I didn't know about the distinctions between different communities of Poor Clares (Colettines, Urbanists, etc.) and the information didn't affect my discernment one way or the other when I found out. In my experience, people feel an attraction to a specific community - how that community might differ from others in the same order is something of an academic question.
[/quote]

See, in AZ, until the last 5 yrs, we've had little to no exposure in the phoenix area to traditional habited nuns. I'm not going to bash on those who choose not to wear a habit but as a truly objective statement, a habit IS more noticeable than secular clothing. The old "out of sight, out of mind" phrase comes to mind. Perhaps many women haven't discerned a vocation to the religious life because, like I thought for many years, nuns were only in the history books and in the movies! I mean, until the advent of the internet, I didn't know they were still around.

So with some of these monasteries in perhaps a low Catholic population, I wonder how it's possible for them to attract vocations... thinking of the whole word of mouth thought process.
[quote name='Antoniette' date='10 November 2009 - 08:42 AM' timestamp='1257867778' post='1999487']
This is a hard one. Two 1990's that I know of personally are Brooklyn and Dallas. Dallas seems to generate tremendous interest.I think at one point I read here there was a waiting list as they wanted to form the 4 novices they had at the time properly, and so weren't taking new postulants immediately. It is a beautiful structure, I would say Spanish in style, but very strict according to the rule (a sister friend of mine attests to that). Yet Brooklyn, refounded from Buffalo-which has been strong enough to make two foundations, and also extremely observant in the rule, right now has one novice about to be simply professed. Why Dallas is so strong, and I mean to add, deservedly so, is anyone answer. It could even even be in the tone of the prioress's initial response, or the rapidity of response. From what I observed here, some Carmels take a long time to answer. In this age of internet, people's focus is limited, obviously the quick response generates more interest.

Of course nothing can seem to top Valpairiso Carmel. That strict Tridentine community was bursting at the seams, refounding Elysburg Carmel, and chock full of white veils. I think the Latin Mass, and adherence and accepting of the magisterum of the church obviously has everything to do with that.

I also agree there are wonderful 1991's too. I can't understand why Philadelphia isn't turning them away. It is another beautiful monastery, an absolutely wonderful prioress in Mother Barbara, fully habited, they even sponsor a tridentine mass fairly regulary, as does Dallas, and Brooklyn just instituted a monthly one.

Somehow I feel the answer lies in exposure and obedience. The more people know of the working of the Holy Spirit and adherence to the spirit of the rule of Carmel, the more young women will be attracted. I think the same applies to Carmels abroad. I see absolutely nothing "Non Kosher" about 1990 St. Helen's, except it is isolated in the woods, and doesn't communicate other than by snail mail. I am not sure how many inquiries they get, yet they also have a wonderful prioress in Mother Paula.

Those are my opinions, if anyone has the "right answer" please tell some of those aging out Carmels!
[/quote]

I've heard about the Valpairiso nuns. I discerned with them several years ago. I never visited but because I was in my early 30s, that apparently was too old for them and they wanted to know if I'd be an extern instead. I've heard wonderful things about the Dallas Carmel. I didn't know they existed until recently. Philly is 1991? I didn't know that.