Interesting Arguement

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 November 2009 - 02:37 AM' timestamp='1257925034' post='2000525']
Your reading comprehension is not what it should be, because the pivotal element in Sternhauser's post was not merely the word "must"[b] but the entire phrase concerning openness to the possibility of transmitting life.[/b][/quote]
[size="4"]
WHY?[/size]

[Veridicus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 02:39 AM' timestamp='1257925197' post='2000528']
[size="4"]
WHY?[/size]
[/quote]

And was it semen?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='11 November 2009 - 02:34 AM' timestamp='1257924865' post='2000517']
And was it semen?
[/quote]

That "every sperm is sacred" song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" just came into my head. Okay, so the semen contains sperm that is capable of producing children if combined with a female egg.

Is it gravely immoral for an infertile man to have sex?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 02:41 AM' timestamp='1257925317' post='2000531']
That "every sperm is sacred" song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" just came into my head. Okay, so the semen contains sperm that is capable of producing children if combined with a female egg.
[/quote]

Thank you. Now, name another biological function of semen in the natural world other than fertilization. There are none. Male gametes have but one function: to fertilize eggs.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Veridicus

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1257925197' post='2000528']
[size="4"]
WHY?[/size]
[/quote]
As Pope Paul VI taught in Humanae Vitae the goal of sexual intercourse is human procreation primarily and secondarily it expresses the union of love that exists between the spouses. No act of will on the part of the spouses can interfere with the generative faculty. So every conjugal act must be open to life. The "must" concerns the openness to the possibility of life, and not to the idea - that you erroneously proposed in your post - that every act must lead to conception.

Edited November 11, 2009 by Apotheoun

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='11 November 2009 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1257924822' post='2000515']
It is an irony to me that it took our country 200 years to finally admit that people are not determined or reduced by their race or genetics and that we can rise above color, socioeconomic status, family problems and religious differences. But in the modern viewpoint human sexuality is incontrovertibly static. You were hardwired straight or gay that way in your genetics and to hell with anyone who suggests you have the power to change. You are limited and determined by your sexual orientation apparently. Just not by anything else.
[/quote]

False analogy. How can you compare equality for people regardless of religion, colour etc. to someone's sexual orientation that is usually determined (nature AND nurture) by the time they're six years old? Race relations was about equal rights, not changing.

I believe in rising above sexual divisions just as much as I believe in rising above racial, socio-economic and gender divisions.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='11 November 2009 - 02:44 AM' timestamp='1257925496' post='2000533']
As Pope Paul VI taught in Humanae Vitae.....
[/quote]

Translation: Because the Pope said so.

Thanks man.

Edited November 11, 2009 by OraProMe

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='11 November 2009 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1257925417' post='2000532']
Thank you. Now, name another biological function of semen in the natural world other than fertilization. There are none. Male gametes have but one function: to fertilize eggs.
[/quote]


This comes back to the "can" and "must" distinction that hasn't been answered yet.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 02:41 AM' timestamp='1257925317' post='2000531']
That "every sperm is sacred" song from Monty Python's "The Meaning of Life" just came into my head. Okay, so the semen contains sperm that is capable of producing children if combined with a female egg.

Is it gravely immoral for an infertile man to have sex?
[/quote]

No, but also worthy of note is that impotent men may not marry.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='11 November 2009 - 12:07 AM' timestamp='1257923273' post='2000487']
If it occurs in nature then it's natural.
[/quote]
The word nature is polyvalent, and in moral theology it stands for the fulfillment of a being through an action that conforms to right reason and to the proper finality of the being in question.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='11 November 2009 - 03:47 AM' timestamp='1257925674' post='2000538']
No, but also worthy of note is that impotent men may not marry.
[/quote]

Aalpha, remember, many people consider "marriage" to mean "friends, plus sex, with tax breaks. Terms subject to change."

~Sternhauser

Edited November 11, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Veridicus]

Here is what you have stated thus far in response to my queries:

Define Sex: Penetration with the purpose of ejaculation.
Define Ejaculation: Ejaculation is the discharge of semen during orgasm.
Define Semen: Semen contains sperm that is capable of producing children if combined with a female egg.

So by your own admission: Sex is penetration with the purpose of 1)Orgasm & 2)Discharge of sperm capable of fertilizing an egg

This is all the Catholic Church teaches. She simply states that these 2 things cannot be separated without compromising the dignity of either.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 02:46 AM' timestamp='1257925618' post='2000537']
This comes back to the "can" and "must" distinction that hasn't been answered yet.
[/quote]

I did not use the words 'can' or 'must' in that post. You are interposing what you want to argue about with what I actually said. I simply stated a verifiable scientific fact: Male gametes have one biological function.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='11 November 2009 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1257925553' post='2000535']
Translation: Because the Pope said so.

Thanks man.
[/quote]
No, it is because Christ says so, for He speaks through the Church. I do not buy into the idea that autonomous reason can discover the truth. In fact, there is no such thing as "autonomous" reason, because the rational faculty in man is a participation in Christ's being. That is after all why He is called Logos in scripture.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='11 November 2009 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1257925417' post='2000532']
Thank you. Now, name another biological function of semen in the natural world other than fertilization. There are none. Male gametes have but one function: to fertilize eggs.
[/quote]
I notice that Ora still has not answered your question.