Interesting Arguement

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 November 2009 - 05:33 PM' timestamp='1257806025' post='1999099']
I think that attraction can be controlled as well, because we are beings with the ability to reflect upon our passions, which is why we can control them rather than be controlled by them. Moreover, that is why the Eastern Fathers teach that ascesis is so important in the spiritual life.
[/quote]

It is the same in Western Tradition.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='09 November 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1257806150' post='1999100']
It is the same in Western Tradition.
[/quote]
I agree. But one (whether Eastern or Western) must be careful to avoid any platonic or neo-platonic motivations in the practice of ascesis.

[picchick]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1257802876' post='1999044']
For sure.
[/quote]
When are you going to start. I am serious. You say that people can I say that you can't. So prove your point.

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1257805680' post='1999090']
people can't help who they're attracted to.
[/quote]
You are right. Attraction is a fleeting moment, "Oh, he's good looking, very attractive." Attractions draw your eye and attention. What you can help is how you act on that attraction.

Edited November 9, 2009 by picchick

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1257803422' post='1999056']
Ok, then. How about video games? We obviously aren't designed to play video games, but we still do.
[/quote]

You are starting to sound ridiculous.

[picchick]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1257803422' post='1999056']
Ok, then. How about video games? We obviously aren't designed to play video games, but we still do.
[/quote]

I failed to see this. You mean you are comparing video games to shelter and clothing and homosexuality?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1257805680' post='1999090']
people can't help who they're attracted to.
[/quote]
Some people are attracted to married individuals. That's wrong. Some adults are attracted to young children, again, very wrong.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1257803422' post='1999056']
Ok, then. How about video games? We obviously aren't designed to play video games, but we still do.
[/quote]

The distinctive end to sexual activity is procreation in the context of intimacy. No other action brings about human life. The distinctive end to sex is not pleasure (though this is an integral part), their are tons of ways to receive pleasure. Sex is not even primarily about intimacy...there are other ways to experience this as well. However, the intimacy of procreating life one with the other is particular to sexual intercourse. Acting another way is ipso facto unnatural, an improvisation to support a perversion. Every homosexual act is a manipulation of the body to simulate the real thing; this is perversion.


[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1257804007' post='1999061']
Homosexuality is naturally occuring.
[/quote]

Irrelevant. Being born without an arm is naturally occurring as well. But I don't know anyone who deems it natural. It is still a physical evil in that its not supposed to be that way.


[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1257805680' post='1999090']
people can't help who they're attracted to.
[/quote]

Pedophilia?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 05:00 PM' timestamp='1257804007' post='1999061']
Homosexuality is naturally occuring.
[/quote]
So is killing and stealing.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 November 2009 - 09:30 AM' timestamp='1257805812' post='1999093']
Which is why Apo said "homosexual activity." As a rule, people can control their actions.

And people can control who they are attracted to through detachment and mastering human desires and appetites.
[/quote]

I went to confession and confessed that I got angry whenever illegal immigrants washed up on our shores demanding that we give them a better life. The priests answer was "We can't help our emotions, it's how we deal with them". When I get an evil thought, should I roll in a stinging nettle bush to get rid of it like St Frances? If I had my choice I wouldn't have evil thoughts, they are not useful in any way. Therefore I think satan puts them there and I therefore I do not feel responsible for them. As a teenager I was highly oversexed (most teenagers are) I found it a nuisance! I could not imagine a homo sexual being responsible for their feelings in fact I'm sure many wish they were straight because of the suffering and humiliation they endure. When Father Damian of Moloki confessed that he had touched himself impurely, (May not be true but it was in the movie) The bishops reply was to allow himself a little bit of the space that he would give to his flock.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='picchick' date='09 November 2009 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1257802517' post='1999038']
I would like to see you try to survive without clothes and a roof over your head. Go for it.
[/quote]

I would imagine its quite possible. but i wouldnt know, everytime i try it out i get arrested before i find out for sure.





[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 November 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1257805766' post='1999092']
Yeah, they can.
[/quote]

hmm, i would like to see you try to start being attracted to men instead of women, using only the power of your mind. see how that goes, as a science experiment.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Jesus_lol

[Aloysius]

I'd recommend against that science experiment, because it indeed is possible. I think the Kinsey studies of sexuality really show that there is a wide spectrum along which people can move, and it is indeed possible to move along the spectrum even possibly from one extreme of the spectrum to the other.

Developing an attraction for the sex that one is not normally attracted to is the easier aspect of that psychologically, what is much more difficult is loosing the sexual attraction you had previously. ie, for a heterosexual to develop homosexual attractions is easier than for a heterosexual to lose his heterosexual attraction; and likewise the other way around: a homosexual can certainly develop heterosexual attractions, the more difficult thing is for the homosexual to no longer have homosexual attractions. but both things are possible.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

I think it's a semantic distinction. He's using "natural" to mean everything found in the Universe. The traditional conception had to do with being conducive to fulfilling the "natural" end or purpose of a thing. It's a teleological thing. Being an atheist, he certainly does not believe that anything has an innate purpose, so he doesn't accept this definition of "natural."

Personally, though, I just avoid the natural/unnatural wording altogether because I think it's confusing to most people today

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='09 November 2009 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1257831042' post='1999380']
hmm, i would like to see you try to start being attracted to men instead of women, using only the power of your mind. see how that goes, as a science experiment.[/quote]
I have been able to control my attraction to women. Human beings are not dumb animals. Clearly you have never read the Church Fathers.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='10 November 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1257831042' post='1999380']
hmm, i would like to see you try to start being attracted to men instead of women, using only the power of your mind. see how that goes, as a science experiment.
[/quote]
Are you arguing that one cannot change habits? Are you arguing that sexual attraction is not based in part on conditioning?

[Marie-Therese]

Frogs with two heads. Do they occur in nature? Yes. Are frogs designed to operate with two heads, and is the genetic sustenance of a line of two headed frogs appropriate to the natural order? No. Two headed frogs are physically limited. It is a physical limitation that is not compatible with continued genetic health or sustenance of the species.

This is why the Church's position on homosexuality is that the desire for or attraction to a member of the same sex is not inherently sinful; it is the action of homosexual sex which is in opposition to the continued genetic health and sustenance of the species. That is what makes it disordered.