Interesting Arguement

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='picchick' date='09 November 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1257802517' post='1999038']
I would like to see you try to survive without clothes and a roof over your head. Go for it.
[/quote]


[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1257802876' post='1999044']
For sure.
[/quote]
Point: Meg.

[Varg]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='09 November 2009 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1257803137' post='1999049']
Agreed. Even people who chose a life in the wild construct some kind of shelter, for safety and protection. Clothing, too, is essential to keep the body warm.
[/quote]
Ok, then. How about video games? We obviously aren't designed to play video games, but we still do.

[Apotheoun]

Interestingly his flippant remark about things that deviate from the norm is an expression of what Christians mean by the use of the philosophical / theological term "natural law." Thus, from a Christian perspective the norm is what is natural to human beings, and deviation from the norm is contrary to our nature (and you will notice that I did not say simply "nature" as some kind of abstract concept, but "our" nature, i.e., human nature). Alas, he is using the term [i]natural[/i] to stand simply for reality, while a Christian uses the word [i]natural[/i] to stand for the properties innately present within a human being, and that when properly energized bring the person in question to his proper end.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Varg]

Homosexuality is naturally occuring.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1257804007' post='1999061']
Homosexuality is naturally occuring.
[/quote]
Nope. Homosexual activity, whether done by irrational animals or by human beings, is contrary to nature. The only difference is that with dumb animals there is no culpability because they do not have the capacity to reflect upon their proper natural energies, while human beings who act contrary to their nature are in most cases culpable because they are sentient, i.e., they are rational beings with the ability to understand their proper end.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Human beings kill each other all the time too, but Christian moral theology has always recognized that murder is unnatural, because it is contrary to each man's actualization of virtue, which alone gives him his proper fulfillment, i.e., makes him whole as a person.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Todd, whenever we're not discussing East-West theological differences, I tend to agree with 99% of what you say. This is one of those times. Couldn't say it better myself.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1257804804' post='1999073']
Todd, whenever we're not discussing East-West theological differences, I tend to agree with 99% of what you say. This is one of those times. Couldn't say it better myself.
[/quote]
Oh come on . . . admit it, you even agree with me on some of those East / West differences too.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1257799680' post='1998995']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jrh8VVwMI4&feature=quicklist"]My link[/url]

What do you make of it?
[/quote]
I think the "Amazing" atheist starts with a non-sequitur. He does not have an accurate understanding what "unnatural" means. He believes unnatural is the opposite of natural, and natural is anything that is seen in nature. The sense of nature as the Church uses it is rooted in the understanding of order and disorder.

This is not something imagined as the the "Amazing" atheist believes to satisfy our need for balance. God created order, not man. A magnet does not have polar opposite ends in order to pursue balance. Ditto for winter/summer, positive/negative charges, hot/cold temperature, etc. These are examples of measurable opposites in a defined order. Just as there is order, there is disorder.

Science can measure what is ordered, so can theology. (And I speak as a theological layman and utter newbie.) What is ordered toward the good is ordered, i.e. natural. What ordered toward the bad is disordered, i.e. unnatural.

He uses examples to try and prove items beneficial to people are unnatural. Let's look at glasses. He says glasses are unnatural because they correct someone's naturally degrading vision. But isn't correcting one's vision so ordered toward the good of someone seeing better? Yes. So, it's not disordered to wear eye glasses. Now, what if you wore glasses on your belly and walked around town exposing your mid section wearing glasses? Does that sound like a use of glasses for good, i.e. properly ordered use of glasses? No. That would be be an unnatural use of glasses.

Glasses are not a proper fit for bellies. Ditto for homosexuality. There is not a proper fit. It is a disordered use of the body.

You cannot judge homosexuality as disordered apart from the one who defined the order. Not everything operating in disorder is immoral. It becomes immoral when it works against the order as defined by God, in this case, the use of the bodies of man and woman.

I give him points for the skyscraper example and "I'm smart" glasses. I deduct points for the claim people oppose homosexuality based on made up arguments thrown in on the spot. I think a lot of thought has gone into this issue, more than he knows.

Edited November 9, 2009 by kamiller42

[Varg]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 November 2009 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1257804258' post='1999065']
Nope. Homosexual activity, whether done by irrational animals or by human beings, is contrary to nature. The only difference is that with dumb animals there is no culpability because they do not have the capacity to reflect upon their proper natural energies, while human beings who act contrary to their nature are in most cases culpable because they are sentient, i.e., they are rational beings with the ability to understand their proper end.
[/quote]people can't help who they're attracted to.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 November 2009 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1257804929' post='1999076']
Oh come on . . . admit it, you even agree with me on some of those East / West differences too.
[/quote]
I think that theosis has been underemphasized in the West, largely due to the need to argue against the legalism of Protestant soteriology, and I think that original sin needs to be articulated more clearly to reflect the wholeness of what the East might say, with an emphasis on the effect of the onset of death in human nature, but neither of those are changes in theology so much as changes in emphasis and how things are nuanced.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1257805680' post='1999090']
people can't help who they're attracted to.
[/quote]
Yeah, they can.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1257805680' post='1999090']
people can't help who they're attracted to.
[/quote]
Which is why Apo said "homosexual activity." As a rule, people can control their actions.

And people can control who they are attracted to through detachment and mastering human desires and appetites.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1257805749' post='1999091']
I think that theosis has been underemphasized in the West, largely due to the need to argue against the legalism of Protestant soteriology, and I think that original sin needs to be articulated more clearly to reflect the wholeness of what the East might say, with an emphasis on the effect of the onset of death in human nature, but neither of those are changes in theology so much as changes in emphasis and how things are nuanced.
[/quote]
There, you see, that wasn't so hard.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1257805812' post='1999093']
Which is why Apo said "homosexual activity." As a rule, people can control their actions.

And people can control who they are attracted to through detachment and mastering human desires and appetites.
[/quote]
I think that attraction can be controlled as well, because we are beings with the ability to reflect upon our passions, which is why we can control them rather than be controlled by them. Moreover, that is why the Eastern Fathers teach that ascesis is so important in the spiritual life, for it is through it that one gains control of his desires.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Apotheoun