America And Guns

[Varg]

You expect the Soiet Union to do ANYTHING right?

Edited November 10, 2009 by Varg

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1257883255' post='1999704']
You say that "we are not obliged to give up our lives or the lives of others." And I agree. The gospel is not an "obligation," it is an invitation. But the Gospel does invite us to non-violence and martyrdom. The Gospel is not a philosophy for this world. It is an eschatological vocation.

Christ never advocates violence, because his Kingdom is not of this world. "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it" (Matthew 10:39).

The Old Testament is not our model. Christ is our model, because he has fulfilled the Old Testament, and the Old Testament must be read in light of Christ. That is why Our Lord would say, "You have heard it said [in the Old Testament]...but I say to you..."

The Gospel does not call for violent defense of our lives, because that is a concern of this world, whereas the Gospel is concerned with the Eschaton. That is why I do not believe that the Gospel should ever be used to justify violent self-defense. If violent self-defense is going to be justified, then it can only be done so on natural grounds.
[/quote]
I should also point out that martyrdom is a personal choice. A government can't make the same decision--it has to fight to defend its people.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Varg' date='10 November 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1257884217' post='1999726']
The government has control of the army. A couple of Average Joes with Glocks aren't going to be able to overthrow the government.
[/quote]
Governments work on money. Dealing with an armed populace makes tyranny more expensive and thus less likely.

[Winchester]

And Gandhi was succesful because of the time in which he chose to be non-violent (he wasn't peaceful). In centuries past, they'd have mowed him down and gotten on with business. Same with MLK Jr.--the lack of follow through in the modern West makes non-violent protest an option. The spillover makes it an option in other countries, as well. Gandhi wasn't unique, he just had good timing.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Winchester

[Apotheoun]

The Church has always taught that a man has a right, and depending upon the circumstances even a moral obligation, to defend himself against an unjust aggressor.

[JimR-OCDS]

Gandhi's success wasn't so much his wining indecency from Great Britain, but rather, getting the Hindus and Muslims to suspend their violence against each other, while winning independence for India.

Gandhi's success against Great Britain, had to do with the fact that Great Britain had a Christian mindset ingrained into their political psyche. They were concerned about their image to the rest of the civilized world.

Against another oppressor, Gandhi would not have been so successful. All we have to do is look at China and Tiananmen Square or Tibet. China cared less what the world thought about their brutality towards the protesters.


Jim

Edited November 10, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1257885695' post='1999762']
The Church has always taught that a man has a right, and depending upon the circumstances even a moral obligation, to defend himself against an unjust aggressor.
[/quote]


Right, but we're to use violence only when necessary and only to the degree to stop the agression.



Jim

[Varg]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1257886258' post='1999770']
Gandhi's success against Great Britain, had to do with the fact that Great Britain had a Christian mindset ingrained into their political psyche. They were concerned about their image to the rest of the civilized world.
[/quote]Or maybe it's because us British are so very nice?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1257886566' post='1999773']
Right, but we're to use violence only when necessary and only to the degree to stop the agression.[/quote]
Yes, including lethal force if necessary.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1257881921' post='1999679']
'Slappo'



We know their lives and the virtues they exhibited. Not all saints were on the same level spiritually, except, all aligned their wills with God's.





I never said I reached this level of spirituality. I spoke about others who have, like Gandhi.




Please, I never suggested that I'm holier than anyone, especially Joan of Arc.

Remember one thing, she never took up arms, she inspired her country men to fight against their oppressors, who BTW, were enemies of Rome.

Also, when Joan was arrested and imprisoned, she was shown the torture devices that would be used on her, if she didn't recant her statements about the locutions she had been receiving. She became fearful and said she would. However, that night in her cell, she had a dream where the Blessed Mother appeared to her and told her she was wrong to fear the torture devices and that she must stay true. She did, and of course was burned at the stake.






Never heard of him, but I'll check him out.

Hope he isn't just a legend, ala St Christopher.

Jim
[/quote]
The Church never said ST Christopher was a legend.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='10 November 2009 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1257886929' post='1999782']
The Church never said ST Christopher was a legend.
[/quote]


[quote]
Legend of St. Christopher

The Catholic Church suggests that almost nothing historical is known about the life and death of St. Christopher,[sup][url="#cite_note-2"][size="2"][3][/size][/url][/sup] however several legends are attributed to him.


[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher#Legend_of_St._Christopher"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher#Legend_of_St._Christopher[/url]

[/quote]


Jim

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 November 2009 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1257882395' post='1999688']
There are many better role models than Ghandi. I assume you mean the male one, because Indira Ghandi wasn't a particularly good role model for anybody.
[/quote]

not to mention his philosophy is NOT a Catholic one.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1257882658' post='1999693']
Mahatma Gandhi is a role model in the use of non-violence, whether we like him or not.

Martin Luther King based his non-violence on Gandhi.

I suppose I shouldn't mention him either, after all, he wasn't Catholic. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

Jim
[/quote]


Gandhi was not Christian and his philosophy cannot be entirely accepted by Christians.

King did base his non-violence on Gandhi; however, King was also a member of a sect of Christianity which had fallen away from many important Divine Revelations of Truth. A Catholic cannot blindly accept his philosophy either.

Not saying they didn't do good things, just saying that you CANNOT hold them up as perfect role-models of Christian doctrine on the subject.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually. There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.
[/quote]

St. Francis participated in the crusades. I would hardly say that he was opposed to legitimate violence.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 November 2009 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1257888423' post='1999801']
St. Francis participated in the crusades. I would hardly say that he was opposed to legitimate violence.
[/quote]


That was before his call from Jesus, and it wasn't the Crusades, but war between Assisi and Perugia.


After his call from Jesus, and after he had established his order of friars, he did go to the Holy Land in protest of the Crusades. On his way, he was captured by and brought before the Sultan. The Sultan was so impressed with his faith, he let him go free.

Jim

Edited November 10, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1257888752' post='1999809']
That was before his call from Jesus, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't the Crusades, but war against Genoa. I believe he was taken as a POW at one point.
[/quote]

No, I was talking about when he went with the crusaders and tried to convert the sultan.