America And Guns

[Era Might]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='09 November 2009 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1257776750' post='1998748']Only those who have reached a higher level of love, will be able to avoid using violence.[/quote]
This is a good point. I think of this in similar terms as celibacy. St. Paul holds up celibacy as the eschatological ideal, but he permits marriage for those who cannot live up to that ideal. Similarly, Our Lord invited us to an eschatological vocation of non-violence. But not everyone will be able to live up to that ideal, and it seems that recourse to violent self-defense will sometimes be necessary for such people. But I think that if we lose sight of the eschatological ideal, then we forget that recourse to violence is a concession to our weakness in living up to the eschatological ideal, that violent self-defense is something to be handled very carefully and with great restraint or else it consumes us (personally and socially).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1257725405' post='1998487']
Why is it still in the constitution? [/quote]
One of the main reasons why the right to bear arms is in the U.S. Constitution is so that the people will have the ability to overthrow a tyrannical government.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='09 November 2009 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1257791203' post='1998867']
Well, about 90% of the guns coming into canada are from the USA. so...
[/quote]
The guns themselves, maybe (I'd like to see stats), but who's using them? A significant portion is Asian gangs, and they're going to get guns no matter where they need to go.

[picchick]

It is important to remember that rights are not given by the governement. A right to defend oneself has always existed. The governement is just protecting it by stating it in the constitution. How can we protect ourselves? Well, owning and using a gun is one way. In the past I am sure the had the best weapon they could have too, even if it was a pointy stick.

So, the governement cannot take the right away because it is a God-given right. They can limit it, (have rules) but they cannot fully take it away.

[Winchester]

Human beings have a right to self defense. Current normal means includes firearms. There is nothing inherently immoral about owning a firearm, so te state has no right to restrict ownership of firearms.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Era Might' date='09 November 2009 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1257791388' post='1998870']
This is a good point. I think of this in similar terms as celibacy. St. Paul holds up celibacy as the eschatological ideal, but he permits marriage for those who cannot live up to that ideal. Similarly, Our Lord invited us to an eschatological vocation of non-violence. But not everyone will be able to live up to that ideal, and it seems that recourse to violent self-defense will sometimes be necessary for such people. But I think that if we lose sight of the eschatological ideal, then we forget that recourse to violence is a concession to our weakness in living up to the eschatological ideal, that violent self-defense is something to be handled very carefully and with great restraint or else it consumes us (personally and socially).
[/quote]

The problem with saying that choosing non-violence over violence shows that you love God more or are more spiritually mature is that the [b]saints[/b] have used violence. They are canonized. They achieved the heights of sanctity and they used violence.

St. Joan of Arc lead an army.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Slappo' date='09 November 2009 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1257813093' post='1999215']
The problem with saying that choosing non-violence over violence shows that you love God more or are more spiritually mature is that the [b]saints[/b] have used violence. They are canonized. They achieved the heights of sanctity and they used violence.

St. Joan of Arc lead an army.
[/quote]

St. Gabriel Possenti, patron saint of handgunners. (Unofficially, so far.) Thankfully, the only thing he had to shoot was a lizard that was skittering across a street.

~Sternhauser

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Slappo' date='09 November 2009 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1257813093' post='1999215']
The problem with saying that choosing non-violence over violence shows that you love God more or are more spiritually mature is that the [b]saints[/b] have used violence. They are canonized. They achieved the heights of sanctity and they used violence.

St. Joan of Arc lead an army.
[/quote]


I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually. There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.

Jim

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually. There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.

Jim
[/quote]
By defending myself, I remain alive to defend my family. But then again, I'm not at the spiritual high that tells me supporting pro-abortion politicians is morally acceptable. Perhaps one day I will be so wise as to understand the complexity in not legalizing murder.

[Winchester]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='09 November 2009 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1257776750' post='1998748']
Over the years there have been several cases of shootings, where a home owner felt he was defending his home. Turns out, the people that were shot, were not criminals, but innocent people who had approached the home
for purely innocent reasons, but were shot by a paranoid home owner who misread their intentions.
[/quote]
How many?
When was "paranoia" diagnosed? (Or perhaps you'd like to admit the usage is merely an emotional appeal).
Sometimes it's reported a bit differently in the news than how it happened. Having been to many scenes that were later reported much differently than how they occurred, I know the many reasons statements are changed. Accidents do happen, but to attribute them to paranoia betrays a very narrow view. Stupidity sometimes plays a role, and that's not paranoia. Foolishness is also not paranoia. A reasonable assumption that at 3AM someone shouldn't be walking into my home is not paranoia. The assumption may turn out to be wrong, but it's not paranoia.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 10:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually. There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.

Jim
[/quote]

Have you read the Rule of Saint Benedict? It talks about how people should have violence done against them to "reform" them.

[left][font="Arial, Helvetica"]"If a brother hath often been corrected and hath even been excommunicated for a fault and doth not amend, let a more severe correction be applied to him, namely, proceed against him with corporal punishment.[/font][/left]
[left][font="Arial, Helvetica"]But if even then he doth not reform, or puffed up with pride, should perhaps, which God forbid, even defend his actions, then let the Abbot act like a prudent physician. After he hath applied soothing lotions, ointments of admonitions, medicaments of the Holy Scriptures, and if, as a last resource, he hath employed the caustic of excommunication and the blows of the lash, and seeth that even then his pains are of no avail, let him apply for that brother also what is more potent than all these measures: his own prayer and that of the brethren, that the Lord who is all-powerful may work a cure in that brother."
[/font][/left]
[left]The only thing that makes St. Benedict's use of violence acceptable is that [i]everyone[/i] read over (or was told) the Rule multiple times in the process of joining the order. They signed up for a smacking. They wholly and voluntarily submitted to being treated according to the Rule. Not only that, but everyone is free to withdraw his consent to be under the Rule at any time. The offending individual is free to leave, and the brothers are free to remove him from their property.
[/left]
[left]Was St. Benedict "less spiritually mature?" And Jim, would it be a sign of spiritual immaturity to defend oneself with violence, as the Church says is permissible? Or is anyone who cannot possibly defend himself without violence "spiritually less mature" than those who, for one reason or other, given their [i]circumstances, [/i]are able to defend themselves without violence?
[/left]
[left]As I said, defense requires efficacy. If you are counting on God's grace to defend yourself by talking to a meth-head who is trying to kill you with a 2x4, that's all right. If it works, it's God's grace making it possible. I wouldn't presume it was my "spiritual maturity" that allowed me to do so.
[/left]
[left]There have been cases in which aggressors have been dispelled, through peaceful means, from committing atrocities. It is the preferable route. But not always possible. In the case when defense is morally necessary, and the more preferable means are ineffective, the resort to effective physical violence is by no means a sign of "spiritual immaturity." [/left]
[left] ~Sternhauser
[/left]
[left]
[/left]

Edited November 10, 2009 by Sternhauser

[picchick]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 09:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually. There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.

Jim
[/quote]

I guess I am not understanding. So, St. Joan of Arc was not as spiritually mature as St. Francis and St. Anthony because she engaged in violence? So hearing the command of God and followng through in obedience makes you not spiritually mature?

And what does her burning at the stake have anything to do with it? She was burned at the stake for ridiculous reasons and has since been cleared.

[Slappo]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 06:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
I don't think Saints were all at the same level spiritually.
[/quote]

This is complete opinion. As no one knows the interior soul, except God, of the saints, there is no way to even speculate really as to which saints are holier aside from those who have been named such by the Church. Our Lady, and St. Joseph for example. (who recieve hyperdulia and protodulia respectively).

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='10 November 2009 - 06:39 AM' timestamp='1257863973' post='1999459']
There are those who did engage in violence, but it was to defend others, not themselves. Joan of Arc burned at the stake.

Then there are others, like St Francis and St Anthony, who's spiritual maturity was so great, they could use the God given wisdom they had, to oppose violence through peaceful means.

Jim
[/quote]

Jim, you are walking on very thin ice. It was either in this thread, or other threads, where you said you have reached the spiritual maturity where violence now disgusts you and you would never use it (or something similar). Now you are implying that St. Joan of Arc was not so spiritually mature as to give up violence for the sake of peace. You're coming really close to saying you are holier then St. Joan of Arc, and that in itself would reveal that you are indeed NOT as holy as St. Joan of Arc as humility is one of the greatest characters of all saints.

Another saint that used violence to preach and convert: St. Louis Marie Grignion De Montefort

[Slappo]

[quote name='picchick' date='10 November 2009 - 08:29 AM' timestamp='1257870582' post='1999498']
I guess I am not understanding. So, St. Joan of Arc was not as spiritually mature as St. Francis and St. Anthony because she engaged in violence? So hearing the command of God and followng through in obedience makes you not spiritually mature?
[/quote]

Don't fret picchick, basically he's just incorrect.

[quote name='picchick' date='10 November 2009 - 08:29 AM' timestamp='1257870582' post='1999498']
And what does her burning at the stake have anything to do with it? She was burned at the stake for ridiculous reasons and has since been cleared.
[/quote]

Which actually makes her a martyr, and there is something special about the sanctity of the martyrs. Not by any means saying they are holier then the non martyrs as I'm sure many saints like St. Pio et al would have gladly accepted martyrdom.

[picchick]

[quote name='Slappo' date='10 November 2009 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1257870834' post='1999504']
Don't fret picchick, basically he's just incorrect.



Which actually makes her a martyr, and there is something special about the sanctity of the martyrs. Not by any means saying they are holier then the non martyrs as I'm sure many saints like St. Pio et al would have gladly accepted martyrdom.
[/quote]

I know, but I want to know his reasoning. I am pretty sure there has to be a high level of maturity for a young teenage girl to follow God's Will and actively leave her family, friends, comfort and safety zone to go out and lead an army of grown men.