Jesus_lol Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 November 2009 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1257905814' post='2000048'] It is very much like needing a license to drive a car. Does having a license prove you are a responsible driver? Does it prove you are a dangerous driver? It proves that you can memorize some questions and behave nicely for a 15-minute road test. There is no moral requirement to have a driver's license to drive a car. [/quote] no it has more to do with basic competency in the operation(a LOT of people cant drive well enough to pass the test, even in multiple attempts. simple skills, just behaving isnt enough) and it proves that you understand most of the rules well enough that if you want to, you are capable of driving safely and in accordance with the laws. as well, if you have a license and are caught blazing through a red light, a cop can assume that you were willingly breaking the law, not just being ignorant. [quote] Sure they should. Because criminals can get illegal guns is the best reason to give guns away. [/quote] i think we are on different planets here, that just doesnt make sense to me. [quote] All right. Tell me: if I want to make firearms and sell them to as many people as I want, as long as I suspect them to be decent individuals, or if I buy and carry a firearm without going through any background check, and I have no intent to harm an innocent, what would you do to me, once you've had your way and made those acts contrary to statute? ~Sternhauser [/quote] probably nothing? well i would look at your process for "suspecting" people of decent. if it just consisted of people smiling and not having eyes to close together or wearing shirts without bloodstains, i would probably make you tighten that up a bit. see if the people have a criminal record, mental illness, any outstanding warrants and at least know how to use a gun without killing themselves or somebody else by accident. that's not too hard. most things like that would be grandfathered in, kinda pointless to try and change the past, i would just make that background test part of your next gun purchase. and i guess if it was for some kind of gun that was later outlawed(like miniguns, there are some legal ones in the US that were made before the laws) some kind of restriction or necessary background check would be necessary if you sold it. like with three wheeled ATVs, i dont think you are allowed to buy or sell them now(cause they are inherently dangerous) but you are allowed to keep owning them, etc. dont police already arrest people for having guns without permits(in the States) or is that just for automatics etc? or is that just in movies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='10 November 2009 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1257906923' post='2000061'] Of course not! Do I look like an anarchist? [/quote] An anarchist/voluntaryist can believe in laws. Many believe in a tort system, however. Antinomians do not believe in laws. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1257907019' post='2000063'] More like a giraffe. [/quote] You look like a panda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='10 November 2009 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1257907035' post='2000065'] An anarchist/voluntaryist can believe in laws. Many believe in a tort system, however. Antinomians do not believe in laws. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Then they believe in rulers. Thus they are not anarchists. It's like a Warlord calling himself a Democrat after faking an election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='10 November 2009 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1257906602' post='2000055'] Laws are coercive by their very nature—stripping rights and using threat of law to get what you want is in fact violence. [/quote] unless it does something you like, right? like banning abortion and gay marriage? or is that just violence? by your reasoning any kind of law is bad, because it is threatening violence, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='10 November 2009 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1257902996' post='2000004'] So how are you getting weapons out of bad guy's hands? It's also a recipe for protecting innocent people. I have firearms and I've paid my fee to reduce the government's infringement of my right to carry. With luck, I'll never have to use it because it's a pain in the butt when you shoot a bad guy. What is your solution? How many cops are you willing to hire to protect individual people? How much money are you willing to spend out of your paycheck to round up all the guns? And then how are you going to keep criminals from getting them? Since you would reduce my ability to protect myself, how are you going to make it up to me? [/quote] Well it's just you're (not just you) are making it sound as if gun control will mean that the crime rate will rise and the government will become totalitarian. But that hasn't been the case in any country with restrictions on weapon ownership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='10 November 2009 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1257907178' post='2000069'] unless it does something you like, right? like banning abortion and gay marriage? or is that just violence? by your reasoning any kind of law is bad, because it is threatening violence, etc. [/quote] There is no right to gay marriage, so nothing's been stripped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='10 November 2009 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1257907206' post='2000070'] Well it's just you're (not just you) are making it sound as if gun control will mean that the crime rate will rise and the government will become totalitarian. But that hasn't been the case in any country with restrictions on weapon ownership. [/quote] The places with the most restrictive gun rights in the US have higher crime rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='10 November 2009 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1257907021' post='2000064'] no it has more to do with basic competency in the operation(a LOT of people cant drive well enough to pass the test, even in multiple attempts. simple skills, just behaving isnt enough) and it proves that you understand most of the rules well enough that if you want to, you are capable of driving safely and in accordance with the laws. as well, if you have a license and are caught blazing through a red light, a cop can assume that you were willingly breaking the law, not just being ignorant.[/quote] Anyone who hasn't lived under a rock knows what is safe and unsafe when driving. Most of them simply don't care what is safe, and most have a license in their purse. [quote] probably nothing? well i would look at your process for "suspecting" people of decent. if it just consisted of people smiling and not having eyes to close together or wearing shirts without bloodstains, i would probably make you tighten that up a bit. see if the people have a criminal record, mental illness, any outstanding warrants and at least know how to use a gun without killing themselves or somebody else by accident. that's not too hard. most things like that would be grandfathered in, kinda pointless to tryand change the past, i would just make that background test part ofyour next gun purchase.[/quote] Make me? There is your violence. You have no right to do violence against me for doing something that is not only not immoral, but not a direct violation of the rights of others. That you think you do, as I said earlier, is a problem. [quote]and i guess if it was for some kind of gun that was later outlawed(like miniguns, there are some legal ones in the US that were made before the laws) some kind of restriction or necessary background check would be necessary if you sold it. like with three wheeled ATVs, i dont think you are allowed to buy or sell them now(cause they are inherently dangerous) but you are allowed to keep owning them, etc. [/quote] Miniguns are legal to own by regular individuals. If you can find one for sale and afford it. They're classified as "Destructive devices." And you have to sell your soul to the State to get the approval to do so. [quote] dont police already arrest people for having guns without permits(inthe States) or is that just for automatics etc? or is that just inmovies?[/quote] As I said, in some States, you do not need a permit to carry a firearm concealed. Most States allow open carry without a permission slip from another man. And in the States where carrying a firearm without a permit is prohibited, yes, police already arrest people for carrying a firearm without a permission slip. And it's already morally wrong for them to do so. ~Sternhauser Edited November 11, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 11, 2009 Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Winchester' date='10 November 2009 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1257907442' post='2000073'] The places with the most restrictive gun rights in the US have higher crime rates. [/quote] Is that because those places have gun restrictions? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='10 November 2009 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1257907206' post='2000070'] Well it's just you're (not just you) are making it sound as if gun control will mean that the crime rate will rise and the government will become totalitarian. But that hasn't been the case in any country with restrictions on weapon ownership. [/quote] i would say, that at least in regards to crime rate, it tends to be the opposite way around. [quote name='Winchester' date='10 November 2009 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1257907267' post='2000071'] There is no right to gay marriage, so nothing's been stripped. [/quote] well, if you want to get into semantics, there was a legal right to gay marriage in california before Prop 8 "stripped" that away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='10 November 2009 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1257907178' post='2000069'] unless it does something you like, right? like banning abortion and gay marriage? or is that just violence? by your reasoning any kind of law is bad, because it is threatening violence, etc. [/quote] That is not what his reasoning said at all. He said stripping rights by violence is wrong. Laws that protect the free exercise of rights are moral. Statutes that use violence to stop moral and/or non-aggressive behavior are immoral. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='10 November 2009 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1257907608' post='2000079'] Is that because those places have gun restrictions? Why? [/quote] Take the teeth and the claws away from a cat, put it in a dark room, and 3 rats will skeletonize it in minutes. ~Sternhauser Edited November 11, 2009 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lounge Daddy Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='10 November 2009 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1257907178' post='2000069'] unless it does something you like, right? like banning abortion and gay marriage? or is that just violence? by your reasoning any kind of law is bad, because it is threatening violence, etc. [/quote] As a matter of fact, yes. You're right. And, by the way, it is true that it's my opinion that the Federal State should [i]not[/i] have any say on abortion and gay marriage. I am not a very big fan of violence, coercion, and threats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='10 November 2009 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1257907608' post='2000079'] Is that because those places have gun restrictions? Why? [/quote] They go up right after because criminals don't care about the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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