Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:40 PM' timestamp='1257896404' post='1999932'] Violent self-defense may sometimes be a right and a duty, but I do not believe that it is a right or duty of the Gospel. [/quote] Yeah, I know that you share the opinion of the Anabaptists on this issue, but I will stick with the teaching of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1257896959' post='1999935'] As long as you have no one who depends upon you, there is no sin in your choice. [/quote] I would not take up arms, which means I would not be using violence to defend myself or others. My sword would be the Word of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1257897027' post='1999937'] I would not take up arms, which means I would not be defending myself or others. My only sword would be the Word of God. [/quote] I reject your position as heretical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 06:51 PM' timestamp='1257897072' post='1999938'] I reject your position as heretical. [/quote] Well then I guess our discussion is at an end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1257897027' post='1999937'] I would not take up arms, which means I would not be using violence to defend myself or others. My sword would be the Word of God. [/quote] Scenario: A young girl is being repeatedly raped and her attacker is strangling her to death, and your response would be to stand by and quote scripture at him during this incident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1257897182' post='1999939'] Well then I guess our discussion is at an end. [/quote] Apparently so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 06:53 PM' timestamp='1257897198' post='1999940'] Scenario: A young girl is being repeatedly raped and her attacker is strangling her to death, and your response would be to stand by and quote scripture at him during this incident? [/quote] That was not the scenario you gave. My response in this new scenario would probably be different than the scenario of a Muslim jihad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1257896404' post='1999932'] Violent self-defense may sometimes be a right and a duty, but I do not believe that it is a right or duty of the Gospel. Violence is a matter of this world, whereas the Gospel is not of this world; we must not confuse this world with the Gospel. That's my main point. [/quote] The violence of this world can still be an opportunity for the Glory of God. The Crucifix, the passion of the martyrs, and the rightful (and if need be violent) defense an elderly person or child in your care who are in imminent threat are examples of love being defined in moments of violence. It is not within our moral freedom to allow the martyrdom of the innocent if we can stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1257897279' post='1999942'] That was not the scenario you gave. My response in this new scenario would probably be different than the scenario of a Muslim jihad. [/quote] Why would it be different? You will defend an innocent young girl in the second scenario, but you will not defend innocent Christians in the first. You have a strange moral sense to say the least. Edited November 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Veridicus' date='10 November 2009 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1257897297' post='1999943'] It is not within our moral freedom to allow the martyrdom of the innocent if we can stop it. [/quote] I agree. You have stated clearly the Church's constant teaching on this issue. To fail to defend the innocent is a sin against charity. Edited November 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 06:56 PM' timestamp='1257897377' post='1999944'] Why would it be different? [/quote] Because life is complex, and I don't believe every situation is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 04:57 PM' timestamp='1257897479' post='1999947'] Because life is complex, and I don't believe every situation is the same. [/quote] So it is okay to allow the murder of some innocent persons when you can stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 07:00 PM' timestamp='1257897647' post='1999948'] So it is okay to allow the murder of some innocent persons when you can stop? [/quote] I think it's best to end our discussion, because it's getting into scenario imagining, which I don't think will add much constructive to what we've already said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Era Might' date='10 November 2009 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1257897807' post='1999950'] I think it's best to end our discussion . . . [/quote] As you wish. P.S. - I often present hypothetical situations when teaching Christian morals to my high school students. Edited November 11, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1257897907' post='1999952'] As you wish. P.S. - I often present hypothetical situations when teaching Christian morals to my high school students. [/quote] I'm not a high school student, and I'm not here to be "taught," but rather, to discuss. Neither am I hear to "teach" anyone, merely to discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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