God Isn't All-Good

[Apotheoun]

As Raphael said . . . Christians do not worship God because He needs it; instead, Christians worship God because through worship man finds the fulfillment of his own being in gratitude. Thus, the worship of God from a Christian perspective is not about fulfilling some kind of arbitrary legal requirement. In fact the Old Law is just that "old," and so Christians do not live under Law, but under the virtuous freedom of the Spirit whereby we live a moral life in emulation of Christ.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1257785347' post='1998803']
All loving?

Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Leviticus 20:13 - God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God demands that we kill disobediant teenagers.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

Sounds like a really nice chap. Why would an all loving god want people to kill his own children? Also, the world is not 6000 years old, it's pretty much impossible to fit two of every species on a boat, it's very unlikely that anyone could survive being eaten by a big fish, let alone living in its belly for 3 days and there was no flood that covered Mt. Everest. Those stories are incorrect. Why would an all knowing god put incorrect things in his book? I'm looking for a rational explanation to these questions but I doubt I'll get anything other than "God does this because he wants to test us" or whatever.
[/quote]


Speaking to the verses provided. You have to keep in mind this was under the old law understood as pre-redemptive law. The time that these punishments were inflicted were in a time in which their was not an alternative for adequate retribution. Sin brings death. The story of the unruly youth who disobeys his parents for instance is to punctuate the reality that unrepentant sin is life unworthily lived...so they are unworthy of life.

As far as the examples you provided after that...the others sum it up well: We aren't Fundamentalists. The Scriptures are a library of books containing history, fable, allegory, poetry etc. The Scriptures are compendium of revealed truth...the manner in which this truth is expressed varies. Six days of creation for instance is an attempt to express the reality that the universe and its contents in all its variety was created by God...not that it took Him six days. The number seven was special for the Jews because it was a symbol of completeness.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 November 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1257774744' post='1998744']
See, that's just the thing...all the Scriptures speak to us. If they don't, then it's because something about us needs to be changed, not something about the Scriptures that would cause us to put away part of them. We don't just ignore passages that don't seem to relate to us.
[/quote]
The Revelation of St. John speaks to you? When I asked a priest about it he said "You are reading the wrong Parts" I have read through it so many times that I have lost count. All I can glean is that some things have already occurred. Maybe when the appointed time comes, it will make sense. But for the moment you would be better off putting it back on the shelf.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='10 November 2009 - 04:05 AM' timestamp='1257786355' post='1998814']
AsRaphael said . . . Christians do not worship God because He needs it;instead, Christians worship God because through worship man finds thefulfillment of his own being in gratitude. Thus, the worship of Godfrom a Christian perspective is not about fulfilling some kind ofarbitrary legal requirement. In fact the Old Law is just that "old,"and so Christians do not live under Law, but under the virtuous freedomof the Spirit whereby we live a moral life in emulation of Christ.
[/quote]

I like that! How true. I feel it most when things in my life work out because I knew God would make it work out and I worship (love him) because out of gratitude I want to.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='09 November 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1257796630' post='1998960']
The Revelation of St. John speaks to you? When I asked a priest about it he said "You are reading the wrong Parts" I have read through it so many times that I have lost count. All I can glean is that some things have already occurred. Maybe when the appointed time comes, it will make sense. But for the moment you would be better off putting it back on the shelf.



I like that! How true. I feel it most when things in my life work out because I knew God would make it work out and I worship (love him) because out of gratitude I want to.
[/quote]
There are some Catholic commentaries on the Book of Revelation, but we don't interpret Scripture in the same way as many non-Catholics. For us, the Book of Revelation can have meanings on several different levels.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='09 November 2009 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1257720411' post='1998432']
Your definitions are linguistic subjectives, not mathematical equations. You cannot say God is good or bad because you have no objective experience with God upon which to base your observations. In a world of atheistic relativism, your critique is more an extension of your opinion/agenda and less an extension of logical thought. You cannot make blanket statements about God because you are incapable of cataloguing individual believer's subjective experiences with God. You cannot even say "modesty=good" because this is subjective. You are assuming modesty on the part of the believe to mean what it is you are saying it means. Likewise with Vanity and Arrogance.

Please offer the subjective definitions of modesty, vanity, and arrogance.
[/quote]
Wow! Very deep. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of that!

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 November 2009 - 07:16 AM' timestamp='1257797787' post='1998975']
There are some Catholic commentaries on the Book of Revelation, but we don't interpret Scripture in the same way as many non-Catholics. For us, the Book of Revelation can have meanings on several different levels.
[/quote]
I would be most appreciative if you could refer me to some text that actually gives some meaning to The Rev. of St. John. It would be truly fascinating.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[hijack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='09 November 2009 - 04:43 PM' timestamp='1257803001' post='1999048']
I would be most appreciative if you could refer me to some text that actually gives some meaning to The Rev. of St. John. It would be truly fascinating.
[/quote]
Sure...well, there are general Catholic commentaries, of course.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id287.html"]Haydock Commentary on Apocalypse (Revelation)[/url] is an oldie but a goodie. It's very old, though, so the language is a bit archaic.

There's also the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm"]entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia[/url], which contains a good bit of general commentary.

Aside from that, some print commentaries that I don't think are online include the Navarre Commentary and the St. Jerome Commentary.

Also, [u][url="http://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591"]The Lamb's Supper[/url][/u] by Dr. Scott Hahn comments heavily on Revelation. Dr. Hahn sees the Book of Revelation as (in part) a description of the way the early Christians worshipped.

As I said, there can be quite a bit of difference between one commentary and another and Catholic commentaries generally don't try to interpret something verse-by-verse (we aren't Biblical literalists, so we don't feel the need to comment on every single passage).

[/hijack]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1257685180' post='1998163']
Modesty=good, vanity+arrogance=bad. I think we all agree with that. So how come God is the most vain being in existance (or non-existance)? He demands to be worshipped and constantly told by everyone how great he is. If someone doesn't worship him they get punished. Vain? Yes, so he has bad qualities and is therefore not all-good and perfect.

Discuss.
[/quote]
I don't have to reject your statement about His "traits" to skewer that idiocy because if God is God, then He is Good, even if He has traits that are bad for us to have or considered bad by us. We don't make the rules. Read Plato, for God's sake.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Raphael' date='10 November 2009 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1257805577' post='1999087']
[hijack]


Sure...well, there are general Catholic commentaries, of course.

[url="http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id287.html"]Haydock Commentary on Apocalypse (Revelation)[/url] is an oldie but a goodie. It's very old, though, so the language is a bit archaic.

There's also the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm"]entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia[/url], which contains a good bit of general commentary.

Aside from that, some print commentaries that I don't think are online include the Navarre Commentary and the St. Jerome Commentary.

Also, [u][url="http://www.amazon.com/Lambs-Supper-Mass-Heaven-Earth/dp/0385496591"]The Lamb's Supper[/url][/u] by Dr. Scott Hahn comments heavily on Revelation. Dr. Hahn sees the Book of Revelation as (in part) a description of the way the early Christians worshipped.

As I said, there can be quite a bit of difference between one commentary and another and Catholic commentaries generally don't try to interpret something verse-by-verse (we aren't Biblical literalists, so we don't feel the need to comment on every single passage).

[/hijack]
[/quote]

[ ] Thanks! [/un ]


[quote name='Raphael' date='10 November 2009 - 03:54 AM' timestamp='1257785678' post='1998808']
1. God does not need our worship, but He knows we need it so much that He was willing to enforce it for our good.

[/quote]

I don't feel that God forced me to do anything. Maybe he offered a carrot that was too good to refuse.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Theoketos]

Great questions!

Even better answers.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='09 November 2009 - 08:37 PM' timestamp='1257817032' post='1999243']
I don't feel that God forced me to do anything. Maybe he offered a carrot that was too good to refuse.
[/quote]
Well, I was speaking about the OT enforcement of worship. For instance, we are to worship God in the way He has determined, which is bound to fulfill us most completely. Those who chose to worship Him in their own way against the law died (Lev 10:1-2).

[Guest Jon]

[b]This is the most interesting thread I have read on any forum. Thank you, Varq.

The very Nature of God is in question.
Can human values, understood by our limited little pee brains - restricted by
the miniscule spectrum of our senses here on this teeny speck of a planet...why, a dog can
hear more than the so-called "Crown of Creation"... A bird can see a mouse from a mile up...a bat can veer away from a leaf as he flies...humans are so limited in their logic and ability to comprehend Something beyond anything from Gene Rodenberry's imagination...can we truly "know and understand" (Jer 9:23) [i]Him[/i] -the Creator of the Infinite and the infinitessmal?

Therefore, could we possibly know and understand reasons for His actions and "rules".

I'm not saying we can't --but what we might understand and know of the Creator --- I say, would have to be perceived on another level of perception than this ordinary human mind performs in.

Even Jesus had to descend to our fleshly 3rd dimensional level to help us understand even enough to get us by in this life and beyond.

John 16:12 -there are so many things I want to tell you - but you can not bear them now. [u]I'll say.[/u]

So, try as you all may to explain to Varq the Nature of God ---I say it is experiential and it is way past logic ---the Bible is a roadmap pointing the way. The menu is not the meal.

Be still and know that I am God. PS 46:10 and PS 91:1 Dwell in the secret place... are deeper than most understand ---so how is it we are to presume much understanding of the Creator of billions of galaxies -let alone 150 billion stars in our own little galaxy?

I will not be one, Varq, to presume I know much -and what I do, would be hard to put into words.

But, I stand in awe and reverence. God's reasons are His Own and are not made to be questioned by me (or Job), but to be deeply and profoundly understood in that secret place - that is in stillness --that place within where dwells His Kingdom.
Get to that place and I believe your desire to understand would be fulfilled.

Imo.
Thank you for this thread,
Jon[/b]

[Apotheoun]

I do not think that anyone in this thread has tried to define [i]what[/i] God is in essence; instead, the posters have merely emphasized the fact that God does not need worship, nor does He stand in need of creation in order to be whole. It is creation that needs God.

The fact that God is hyper-ousias (beyond essence) has been discussed before at Phatmass:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=81541"][u]God as Unknowable[/u][/url]

[Guest Jon]

Thanks for that link.