God Isn't All-Good

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 04:04 PM' timestamp='1257710659' post='1998299']
Why does he need to be worshipped if he doesn't need fulfillment?


Surely you realise that there's a contradiction between a loving god and a god who sends people to hell for who they are?
[/quote]
God doesn't send anyone to hell, people choose it all by themselves. You get there by your actions, not by being who you are.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Varg' date='08 November 2009 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1257685180' post='1998163']
Modesty=good, vanity+arrogance=bad.
[/quote]

Your definitions are linguistic subjectives, not mathematical equations. You cannot say God is good or bad because you have no objective experience with God upon which to base your observations. In a world of atheistic relativism, your critique is more an extension of your opinion/agenda and less an extension of logical thought. You cannot make blanket statements about God because you are incapable of cataloguing individual believer's subjective experiences with God. You cannot even say "modesty=good" because this is subjective. You are assuming modesty on the part of the believe to mean what it is you are saying it means. Likewise with Vanity and Arrogance.

Please offer the subjective definitions of modesty, vanity, and arrogance.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257715859' post='1998367']
Praise, glory, down on your knees, fear God. I think are mistranslations. Put the Old Testament away.
[/quote]

So...Marcionism or simply Revelation-dualism?

We are to fear God, in the sense of awe and respect. Fear of God is consistent with, not contrary to, love of God.

[Marie-Therese]

Varg, consider this...

We state that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving. If He desired for us, His children, to turn our attention to anything else, anything LESS than that, He wouldn't be perfect; therefore He would not be God, since God cannot be anything less than perfect.

God does not demand of us; instead, He knows, as parents know, what is best for His children...and in the case of humanity, the best for us is to turn our attention to Him and to His teachings. Worship is a natural outpouring of appreciation and love for the Creator who has given so freely of such amazing love. Hell, as others have stated, is the opposite state, where people freely choose something other than what is best for them. If you, in society, break a rule, are you not punished for it? Is your breaking of that law not of your own choosing? Hell is prison, metaphorically and literally.

Part of your presumption is also that, for some reason, you believe God's laws are somehow not in the best interest of humanity. The Lord has instituted laws that are the best that humanity could hope for. For us to choose otherwise is foolishness on our part, not vindictiveness on His.

For the Lord to "demand" our worship and obedience is no different than a parent demanding the attention and obedience of their children. He is doing what is best for us. In the fall, man decided that he knew better than God. We continue to reap the consequences for that to this day.

[elizabeth09]

God is always good. If He was not good, then Mary and Jesus will not be Perfect.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1257721090' post='1998440']
So...Marcionism or simply Revelation-dualism?

We are to fear God, in the sense of awe and respect. Fear of God is consistent with, not contrary to, love of God.
[/quote]
I don't understand your definition of fear. As an anxiety sufferer, I would say that the one and only thing I don't fear is God. Quite the contrary "though I walk through the valley of the shadow, I fear no evil, thy rod and thy staff comfort me." If you think I should fear him because of my sins, well I don't! I already know that he forgives me. As I have said many times. Because of my illness I can see that Jesus has carried me most of the way through life. Why should I fear the one thing that know can give me total protection from fear.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1257733157' post='1998585']
I don't understand your definition of fear. As an anxiety sufferer, I would say that the one and only thing I don't fear is God. Quite the contrary "though I walk through the valley of the shadow, I fear no evil, thy rod and thy staff comfort me." If you think I should fear him because of my sins, well I don't! I already know that he forgives me. As I have said many times. Because of my illness I can see that Jesus has carried me most of the way through life. Why should I fear the one thing that know can give me total protection from fear.
[/quote]

I also have anxiety disorder.

Revelation 15:4 shows what it means to Fear the Lord. It means a sort of trembling before the Lord, a sense of awe and wonder. The word "fear" has come to mean in modern English to mean a type of anxiety, ultimately over death or pain, but it used to mean a sort of respect. It is similar to how the word "terrible" now means "wicked" or "awful" but really means something awe-inspiring.

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257715859' post='1998367']
Praise, glory, down on your knees, fear God. I think are mistranslations. Put the Old Testament away.
[/quote]

If I didn't have the Old Testament then there is much I wouldn't understand about the nature of God's relationship with His people, or what it means that Christ established a new covenant.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257715859' post='1998367']
God is my Father and Jesus is my friend and brother. Both/he would get down on their knees and wash my feet and I for them/him.
[/quote]

I "fear" falling short of the expectations that my father and my friends have for me, because I love them. I am still afraid to tell my father when I've done something that might disappoint him... not because I worry that he will withdraw his love, but because I know that he won't. I am made humble by the love of others all the time.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1257735429' post='1998604']
I also have anxiety disorder.

Revelation 15:4 shows what it means to Fear the Lord. It means a sort of trembling before the Lord, a sense of awe and wonder. The word "fear" has come to mean in modern English to mean a type of anxiety, ultimately over death or pain, but it used to mean a sort of respect. It is similar to how the word "terrible" now means "wicked" or "awful" but really means something awe-inspiring.
[/quote]

Peace be with you! Anxiety is a terrible illness mainly in that people don't understand it and equate it to cowardice, weakness, immaturity and silliness when in fact the opposite is the case. To face fear everyday requires courage and trust in God.
I accept your definition of fear, I think I recall now where it was explained to me once before but I had forgotten.
However, If I won the lottery or were to be told I was going on a tremendous holiday, I would awed but it would be a stressful awe. When I sense the presence of the Lord it is an awesome feeling but it produces no stress. It's like he picks me up, puts my dummy in my mouth and sings me a lullaby. I feel happy, safe and contented.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='09 November 2009 - 02:29 PM' timestamp='1257737377' post='1998619']
[quote]
Praise, glory, down on your knees, fear God. I think are mistranslations. Put the Old Testament away.
[/quote]

If I didn't have the Old Testament then there is much I wouldn't understand about the nature of God's relationship with His people, or what it means that Christ established a new covenant.

[/quote]

That was a kind of a loose statement, meaning not to get hung up on the hard to understand or harsh things, like 'An eye for eye' or 'if your eye offends thee, then strike it out.' I suppose they have their place but if they don't speak to you, put the OT away and see what Jesus said. If you believe in him he will lead you to everlasting life.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='09 November 2009 - 04:35 AM' timestamp='1257759343' post='1998714']
That was a kind of a loose statement, meaning not to get hung up on the hard to understand or harsh things, like 'An eye for eye' or 'if your eye offends thee, then strike it out.' I suppose they have their place but if they don't speak to you, put the OT away and see what Jesus said. If you believe in him he will lead you to everlasting life.
[/quote]
See, that's just the thing...all the Scriptures speak to us. If they don't, then it's because something about us needs to be changed, not something about the Scriptures that would cause us to put away part of them. We don't just ignore passages that don't seem to relate to us.

[Varg]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='08 November 2009 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1257721694' post='1998444']
Varg, consider this...

We state that God is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving.
[/quote]
All loving?

Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Leviticus 20:13 - God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God demands that we kill disobediant teenagers.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

Sounds like a really nice chap. Why would an all loving god want people to kill his own children? Also, the world is not 6000 years old, it's pretty much impossible to fit two of every species on a boat, it's very unlikely that anyone could survive being eaten by a big fish, let alone living in its belly for 3 days and there was no flood that covered Mt. Everest. Those stories are incorrect. Why would an all knowing god put incorrect things in his book? I'm looking for a rational explanation to these questions but I doubt I'll get anything other than "God does this because he wants to test us" or whatever.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Varg' date='09 November 2009 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1257785347' post='1998803']
All loving?

Exodus 35:2 - God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Leviticus 20:13 - God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - God demands that we kill disobediant teenagers.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 - God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

Sounds like a really nice chap. Why would an all loving god want people to kill his own children? Also, the world is not 6000 years old, it's pretty much impossible to fit two of every species on a boat, it's very unlikely that anyone could survive being eaten by a big fish, let alone living in its belly for 3 days and there was no flood that covered Mt. Everest. Those stories are incorrect. Why would an all knowing god put incorrect things in his book? I'm looking for a rational explanation to these questions but I doubt I'll get anything other than "God does this because he wants to test us" or whatever.
[/quote]

1. God does not need our worship, but He knows we need it so much that He was willing to enforce it for our good.

2. Catholics aren't literalists, so once again, please learn what we believe before trying to attack us.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1257785678' post='1998808']
1. God does not need our worship, but He knows we need it so much that He was willing to enforce it for our good.[/quote]
I would add to this by reminding everyone that Christians are not under the Law, so this is a moot point.

[quote name='Raphael' date='09 November 2009 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1257785678' post='1998808']
2. Catholics aren't literalists, so once again, please learn what we believe before trying to attack us.[/quote]
I agree, but I would express this differently. The points Varg brought up are concerns for Biblical Fundamentalists (i.e., certain types of Protestants), but not for Catholics.

Edited November 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='09 November 2009 - 11:58 AM' timestamp='1257785919' post='1998811']
I would add to this by reminding everyone that Christians are not under the Law, so this is a moot point.


I agree, but I would express this differently. The points Varg brought up are concerns for Biblical Fundamentalists (i.e., certain types of Protestants), but not for Catholics.
[/quote]
Hear hear.