My Kin

[hyperdulia again]

I have a number of High Church Lutheran and Episcopalian relatives; yes I am related to, love, and care for Protestants. Three of my grandparents were converts to the Catholic Faith.

Pawpaw and Ganny, who were Lutherans, converted after my father married my mother. Nanna, who was Lutheran, converted just before moing to the United States, after the Virgin came to her at the end of a long series of dreams and said, "Leave this place and leave your heresy." WWII started a few months later and her entire immediate family, excepting Uncle Wehrner (who is now a bi-continental Jesuit priest), died.

My father's siblings are all very, very High Church Lutherans (very,very liberal also, but they do so love a good ritual) and a number of my first cousins on that side of my family have married Episcopalians and become such by default (most prot churches don't have a concept of conversion). They all believe in Purgatory, they all believe in Saintly intercession, and some of them even believe in TRANSUBSTANTIATION.

I am wondering if anyone knows of some really good info on the uniqueness of the Church of Rome (I use this phrase, because they'd all say, "Yes, I'm Catholic," if asked).

Example:

My cousin Becca [not to be confused with Becky and Rebecca] (16) and I just had an argument over whether or not Anglicans are Catholic and she actually proved to me usinng the BOC thhat they believe in the Assumption, the Eucharist, the Saints, and lots of other things. She prays for the intentions of the Holy Father and calls him the "Head of the Church".

It boggles my mind that these people consider themselves to be in union with Rome. Please pray for them and please tell me something I can tell Becca to prove that she's not Catholic and she needs to join the Catholic Church.

Mother's side is Catholic excepting a few Lutherans in Germany.

Also pray that Jon's mother will return to her Byzantine roots, she's been very interested since Ashley's baptism.

[Anna]

Wow, this is what we pray for when we pray the Holy Rosary, that there will be One Shepherd, and One Fold!

Why not invite Becca to attend RCIA this fall and learn the differences (if any) between what she practices and believes now, and what the Church actually teaches.

With the Grace of God, that might just be enough for her to make the shift.

Pax Christi. <><

[marielapin]

Hyper, here are some links that might help you out.

Certain Difficulties Felt by Anglicans in Catholic Teaching, Volume 1

John Henry Newman

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglican...ume1/index.html

Catholic Critique of Anglicanism

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ252.HTM

"Roman Catholic" vs. "Catholic"

(Proper Titles)

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ250.HTM

Rome = Theological Orthodoxy

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ137.HTM

Apostolicae Curae

Pope Leo XIII

On the Nullity of Anglican Orders (1896)

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/a-orders.htm

Saepius Officio

Answer of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York to the Bull Apostolicae Curae of H. H. Leo XIII

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucgbmxd/saepius.htm

and for a full-up definition, see:

Anglicanism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01498a.htm

[Chrysologus]

"Quod Catholicus non habeatur qui non concordat Romanae ecclesiae."

- Pope St. Gregory VII: Dictatus Papae, 26 (11th cent.)

That means, "He cannot be accounted a Catholic who does not agree with the Roman Church." Point out that according to Rome, a Catholic must worship in a Catholic church (or an Orthodox church if that's all that's available), Anglican holy orders are invalid, therefore, so are confirmation, Eucharist, confession, and anointing. Their priests and bishops are schismatics and don't believe the same as her, since they wouldn't think of the pope as the head of the church, but rather the Archbishop of Canterbury in a loose way.

[hyperdulia again]

Thanx Lauren and Anna.

Chrys, the problem is not thaat they don't think the pope is the head of the Church, they think that head-ship doesn't mean anything other than that he is the first among equals. They (even the Evangelicals) hold to a Primacy of Honor rather than a Supremacy of Authority. They don't recognize that the Pope has any right to evaluate whether their orders are valid or whther or not any sacrament they offer is valid.

[hyperdulia again]

I don't know whether anyone remembers this, but I am proud to announce that Jon's mother is now seriously considering going back to the Byzantine Rite. I went to the Divine Liturgy today with her and her elderly mother, and she actully cried when we went to recieve Our Lord and she wasn't able to.

Becca wants to be an Episcopal priest, so please pray for her.

[God Conquers]

You'll have to use History to prove your case. The example of St. Clement I and early popes being prime Bishops of Rome, having authority over other districts.

Also point to the connection between the keys that Jesus gives Peter and the ones given in Isaiah to the al-bayat, or Prime Minister of Jerusalem. Isaiah 22:20-24. The Prime Minister alone can open gates and close them. He is a "peg in a secure place" and the "whole weight of his ancestral house weighs on him, the offspring and issue..."

The weight of the Church is fully on Him.

[Uncle Gus]

They might believe that the Pope is the head of the Church, and that's all well and good, but none of us are in communion with the Catholic Bishop of Rome. We are in communion with the Bishop of our diocese, who is in communion with the Catholic Bishop of Rome. So even if your relatives think that the Pope is the true leader of the Church, they are in communion with their own Anglican Bishop, who is not in communion with the Catholic Bishop of Rome, so they are not in communion with Rome, I'm sorry. They either need to seek communion with the Catholic Bishop of their diocese, or convince their own Anglican Bishop to seek communion with the Catholic Bishop of Rome, Pope John Paul II.

[Ellenita]

It is the authority of the pope which is the divide between the anglican church and the catholic church. Moving your understanding of valid apostolic succession is very difficult for an anglican because you have been raised to believe that your bishop has that anyway. It is the historical evidence that has convinced me - when you are forced to confront it, it is very logical and difficult therefore to argue against.

There are many similarities between the beliefs of high anglicans and catholics and your cousin may well feel that there is no need to 'convert' as a result - that was certainly my experiece before I began to really consider what the term 'anglo catholic' meant.

Is your cousin from the high anglican tradition? She is going to have a rough ride if she decides to become a priest and remain part of that section of the church since they were the ones most opposed to women's ordination!

[hyperdulia again]

In this country Ellenita I think Anglo-Catholics count for both the Liberal and Conservative wings of the Anglican Church.

[Ellenita]

Wow Hyper, that amazes me! I don't think I've ever heard anyone from the low anglican tradition describe themselves as 'anglo catholic' over here. Certainly the (very) few times I've gone to a low anglican service I've felt they were more aligned to the Methodist church in format, but then I suppose I've been biased because I love the beauty of the mass (anglican, I've yet to have the courage to go to a Catholic mass!).

The huge debate on women's ordination over here was on the whole governed by whether you were from high tradition who were almost universally opposed to it, or low tradition, most of whom supported it. Of course that is generalising, but certainly there were some people who left the anglican church and joined the Catholic church as a result of it - I don't suggest that was the only reason for their conversion, but that it was the final push!