Can A Sin Be Justified?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 November 2009 - 11:15 AM' timestamp='1257696933' post='1998212']
Unsuccessfully.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Depends on the individuals.

[add]

we all do it, even thought you know it is wrong, that doesn't make it justifiable. sinning is like eatting just one potato chip, once you give in it is hard to stop.

[Sternhauser]

Meg, do you think Jane would have been successful in achieving her end, if she had said "Why would you think that?"

~Sternhauser

Edited November 8, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Maggyie]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='08 November 2009 - 11:19 AM' timestamp='1257693588' post='1998196']
I think he means one should flee to Mexico if asked a difficult or embarrassing question.
[/quote]


Or... take an ice axe to your interrogator's brain?

[picchick]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='08 November 2009 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1257697998' post='1998218']
Meg, do you think Jane would have been successful in achieving her end, if she had said "Why would you think that?"

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

perhaps but won't Jane eventually have to answer the question yes or no?

By the way, all these qustions are out of curiosity.

I agree with apparently. Once you start you can't just stop. So when does "innocent" lies to evade difficult/awkward situations become sins?

[Slappo]

Jane could even go farther rather then just saying "why would you think that?"

And say something (as long as it were true) like "I didn't coordinate a surprise party!" If she were only assisting with it and someone else were coordinating it. If she wasn't actually part of the planning, but instead was merely volunteering to bring a dessert or something, she could even say she didn't plan it.


Basically it can't be a flat out lie, but it can look pretty close to a lie to the point where some might even argue that it is semantics.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 November 2009 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1257705417' post='1998257']
perhaps but won't Jane eventually have to answer the question yes or no?[/quote]

Probably, and that was my contention.

[quote]So when does "innocent" lies to evade difficult/awkward situations become sins?
[/quote]

If it's a lie, it is a sin, and it is not innocent. It can merely be a very light sin.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 8, 2009 by Sternhauser

[kafka]

lying is intrinsically evil

indepedent of the circumstance/consequences the moral object chosen is a direct and voluntary assertion of a falsehood. This is [b]always[/b] in contradiction to God who is Truth. Lying by its nature is sinful.

Analyzing lying is actually useful since the whole moral law is based on the Nature of God who is Truth, Love, etc. So it is clear that to assert a falsehood directly and voluntarily contradicts God's nature and human nature since we are made in his own image.

Now obviously the above examples are not grave enough to be seriously sinful. One could justly use mental reservation in the case of the surprise party. It also possible that people might slip out of surprise etc. and tell a lie without realizing or intending it. I'm not sure it this sort of lying is considered a fault or a venial sin of weakness. Perhaps a fault or imperfection since it is involuntary and indirect.

Edited November 8, 2009 by kafka

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 November 2009 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1257705417' post='1998257']
perhaps but won't Jane eventually have to answer the question yes or no?

By the way, all these qustions are out of curiosity.

I agree with apparently. Once you start you can't just stop. So when does "innocent" lies to evade difficult/awkward situations become sins?
[/quote]
You never have to answer a question. Silence is always an option. It's what St. Thomas More did, although it eventually cost him his head.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='picchick' date='08 November 2009 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1257705417' post='1998257']
perhaps but won't Jane eventually have to answer the question yes or no?

By the way, all these qustions are out of curiosity.

I agree with apparently. Once you start you can't just stop. So when does "innocent" lies to evade difficult/awkward situations become sins?
[/quote]
There's no such thing as an innocent lie. Moral evasion or silence are the only options.

[MIKolbe]

pity tho... to be a good moral evader, it helps to be a believable and convincing liar.

[JimR-OCDS]

For a lie to be a sin, it has to be done with malice.

Telling a Nazi soldier, that there are no Jews hiding in your house, would not sinful. You're withholding information he has no right to.

Edited November 9, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 November 2009 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1257726033' post='1998494']
For a lie to be a sin, it has to be done with malice.

Telling a Nazi soldier, that there are no Jews hiding in your house, would not sinful. You're withholding information he has no right to.
[/quote]

I've never seen "malice" as a requirement for something to be a lie. A lie is simply an untruth said with the intent to deceive. Your definition seems like casuistry.

~Sternhauser

Edited November 9, 2009 by Sternhauser

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='08 November 2009 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1257726033' post='1998494']
For a lie to be a sin, it has to be done with malice.

Telling a Nazi soldier, that there are no Jews hiding in your house, would not sinful. You're withholding information he has no right to.
[/quote]
You are incorrect. You don't need to have a bad intention to commit a sin.

"By its very nature, lying is to be condemned." -CCC 2485

A lie is an intrinsically evil act. It cannot be rendered moral by intention or circumstances.

[JimR-OCDS]

Interesting reading on the subject:

[quote]
St. Augustine held that the naked [url="../cathen/15073a.htm"]truth[/url] must be told whatever the consequences may be. He directs that in difficult cases silence should be observed if possible. If silence would be equivalent to giving a sick man unwelcome news that would kill him, it is better, he says, that the body of the sick man should perish rather than the [url="../cathen/14153a.htm"]soul[/url] of the liar. Besides this one, he puts another case which became classical in the [url="../cathen/13554b.htm"]schools[/url]. If a man is hid in your house, and his life is sought by murderers, and they come and ask you whether he is in the house, you may say that you [url="../cathen/08673a.htm"]know[/url] where he is, but will not tell: you may not deny that he is there. The [url="../cathen/13548a.htm"]Scholastics[/url], while accepting the teaching of St. Augustine on the absolute and intrinsic malice of a lie, modified his teaching on the point which we are discussing. It is interesting to read what St. [url="../cathen/12671c.htm"]Raymund of Pennafort[/url] wrote on the subject in his [i]Summa[/i], published before the middle of the thirteenth century. He says that most [url="../cathen/05072b.htm"]doctors[/url] agree with St. Augustine, but others say that one should tell a lie in such cases. Then he gives his own opinion, speaking with hesitation and under correction. The owner of the house where the man lies concealed, on being asked whether he is there, should as far as possible say nothing. If silence would be equivalent to betrayal of the secret, then he should turn the question aside by asking another — How should I [url="../cathen/08673a.htm"]know[/url]? — or something of that sort. Or, says St. Raymund, he may make use of an expression with a double meaning, an equivocation such as: Non est hic, id est, Non comedit hic — or something like that. An [url="../cathen/08004a.htm"]infinite[/url] number of examples induced him to permit such equivocations, he says. Jacob, Esau, Abraham, Jehu, and the [url="../cathen/06330a.htm"]Archangel Gabriel[/url] made use of them. Or, he adds, you may say simply that the owner of the house ought to deny that the man is there, and, if his [url="../cathen/04268a.htm"]conscience[/url] tells him that this is the proper answer to give, then he will not go against his [url="../cathen/04268a.htm"]conscience[/url], and so he will not [url="../cathen/14004b.htm"]sin[/url]. Nor is this direction contrary to what Augustine teaches, for if he gives that answer he will not lie, for he will not speak against his mind ([i]Summa[/i], lib. I, [i]De Mendacio[/i]). [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm[/url]
[/quote]


Jim

Edited November 9, 2009 by JimR-OCDS