Varg

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1258228578' post='2002711']
Yes, you do pick and choose your logic. I could have sworn you just recently posted a thread in which you stated you hated Christians or something to that nature. Atheists do have a lot of bitter hateful resentment, that's just a fact. Sorry buddy.
[/quote]
That thread was joke, as evidenced by the "I also hate everything Catholics hate" "you hate kittens?" "yes." I'm sorry you don't understand humor.

However, making a generalization about how all atheists are hateful does nothing but make you look arrogant and unwilling to even try to understand other points of view.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='14 November 2009 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1258228760' post='2002717']
That thread was joke, as evidenced by the "I also hate everything Catholics hate" "you hate kittens?" "yes." I'm sorry you don't understand humor.

However, making a generalization about how all atheists are hateful does nothing but make you look arrogant and unwilling to even try to understand other points of view.
[/quote]

I said most, not all. But I would still place you in with most. The bitterness in which you speak shows your hate.

[Varg]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='14 November 2009 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1258228477' post='2002708']
umm..okay?
[/quote]
Seriously. When was the last time someone took the bible and went "hang on, that's a contradiction" or "this bit doesn't make sense"?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 02:04 PM' timestamp='1258229051' post='2002722']
I said most, not all. But I would still place you in with most. The bitterness in which you speak shows your hate.
[/quote]
My "bitterness" isn't towards the religion, it's towards its followers, like yourself, who talk down to me like I'm the biggest moron on the planet.

Edited November 14, 2009 by fidei defensor

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='14 November 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1258228665' post='2002714']

I place my [u]confidence in something with a defined methodology, even if it is imperfect.[/u] No one is saying it is.

That contrasts with [u]religion which claims to understand the world perfectly but offers no solid proof of anything it claims[/u]. Call me a humanist. I believe humans can figure out the world and make it work, to the extent that they are able to with the minds we have.
[/quote]

I am not trying to nit-pick but as I read your post you keep attempting to posit one thing and then immediately offer an inconsistent comparison for religion.

You believe in science though it is imperfect...yet its imperfection is forgivable.
You do not believe in religion because it is imperfect...yet its imperfection is unforgivable.

PS. 1.) The Church doesn't teach that it knows the truth about everything. 2.) Humanism isn't incompatible with Catholicism.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='Varg' date='14 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1258229099' post='2002723']
Seriously. When was the last time someone took the bible and went "hang on, that's a contradiction" or "this bit doesn't make sense"?
[/quote]

Fundamentalists? All the time.

Can you explain to me the manner in which the Church interprets Scripture?


Are you speaking of morality? Do you think morality does change?

[Guest Jon]

RE: NDE's - I'm not here as some authority on NDEs that's for sure and don't want
to hijack the thread.
I would like to say - of course the brain is still firing.
It's a tough one when you know people that have 100% changed and become angelic after "dying"
on the table even years later - and also a friend that went to her parents saying I met my little brother ---
Apparently a little brother out on the farm they never told anybody they had and died and buried!
Things like that -looking into their eyes --yeah, there's no proof.

Or the lady that "died" and "traveled " across country and hung around her sister for awhile before being pulled back into her body ----then telling her sis what she was wearing and what she was cooking.
But because scientists say the brain was firing -oh no - this didn't really happen.
Not at all, I know all about that there's no proof.

That's ok - different strokes for different folks.
[u]We got the main thing down - we both love God.[/u]

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='14 November 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1258229559' post='2002730']
I am not trying to nit-pick but as I read your post you keep attempting to posit one thing and then immediately offer an inconsistent comparison for religion.

You believe in science though it is imperfect...yet its imperfection is forgivable.
You do not believe in religion because it is imperfect...yet its imperfection is unforgivable.

PS. 1.) The Church doesn't teach that it knows the truth about everything. 2.) Humanism isn't incompatible with Catholicism.
[/quote]
You are correct, my comparison is incomplete. Let me define it further.

The reason why religion's imperfection is unforgivable is because there is the belief among the religious that their way is the only way and there is no compromise. However, there is not sufficient evidence to believe that proposition. In science, you follow the evidence and make decisions based on it. Religion wants me to believe that I should follow their way, even though they offer no logical reason to do so (outside of emotions or "would you rather risk hell?") If a body threatens me with hell and calls me illogical for not believing, they better have good reason why I should believe them. I've not seen any good reason. Telling me you're right isn't enough. There is no mechanism for changing with new findings, there is no mechanism that proves to me that change isn't necessary. If religion was willing to admit that it may not be completely correct, then it could be forgivable. But then it wouldn't be religion.

[Servus_Mariae]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='14 November 2009 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1258231122' post='2002759']
You are correct, my comparison is incomplete. Let me define it further.

The reason why religion's imperfection is unforgivable is because there is the belief among the religious that their way is the only way and there is no compromise. However, there is not sufficient evidence to believe that proposition. In science, you follow the evidence and make decisions based on it. Religion wants me to believe that I should follow their way, even though they offer no logical reason to do so (outside of emotions or "would you rather risk hell?") If a body threatens me with hell and calls me illogical for not believing, they better have good reason why I should believe them. I've not seen any good reason. Telling me you're right isn't enough. There is no mechanism for changing with new findings, there is no mechanism that proves to me that change isn't necessary. If religion was willing to admit that it may not be completely correct, then it could be forgivable. But then it wouldn't be religion.
[/quote]

Thank you that was very clear. There is allot that could be discussed here in more than one thread; but I see your point.

I suppose I could try to address a few of your propositions, but perhaps another thread would be more appropriate for this. This one seems to be moving in multiple directions...lol it already has.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='14 November 2009 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1258231122' post='2002759']
Religion wants me to believe that I should follow their way, even though they offer no logical reason to do so (outside of emotions or "would you rather risk hell?")
[/quote]
Religion is not a "they" nor is it a "him" or "her."

[Varg]

You can't attack his points so you attack his wording?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 02:48 PM' timestamp='1258231721' post='2002770']
Religion is not a "they" nor is it a "him" or "her."
[/quote]
I used that wording because I'm referring to religion in general, as the collection of all the followers and beliefs.

[Caritas]

[quote name='Varg' date='14 November 2009 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1258232110' post='2002779']
You can't attack his points so you attack his wording?
[/quote]

changing how that particular sentence was worded changes the entire meaning of the statement.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Varg' date='14 November 2009 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1258229099' post='2002723']
Seriously. When was the last time someone took the bible and went "hang on, that's a contradiction" or "this bit doesn't make sense"?
[/quote]
You would seriously have more respect for someone who took the Bible and edited it every so often so it fit with the present whims of society than someone who takes it as is?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='15 November 2009 - 03:58 AM' timestamp='1258217908' post='2002629']
Again, there is a difference. What you saw can be proven, in the end, with the methods of science. Just because it wasn't proven to you then and there doesn't mean it's proof-less. God can't be proven, not until you're dead, at least. And no one can come back from death to tell us.
[/quote]
No it cannot be proven to [u]me[/u]. I have seen the inside of the magnets and all the fancy plumbing with multi coloured lights to wow the public and have had the theory explained, but the only evidence that I have that it works in that way is the resultant output, that is, loads of data on the molecular structure of materials and medical imaging. The Church is similar in that I see it's resultant output. Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the imprisoned and all the things that we humans do which are contra to adaptation for survival. This is not to mention my own personal feelings and experiences of the spirit.