Update

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

Hi, I was here a few years ago under the name CruxOfTheMatter, which account I think I shut down.

However, I've been getting back into actively discerning again in my life and on a whim came back here tonight.

To my surprise, I saw that one of my posts from almost two years ago had recently been active, and in a quite controversial way, to the point that the thread was closed.

Apparently some user named "alleros" was under the impression that I was talking about his order [Correction, apparently alleros is a woman, she said "We women" in one of the posts in that thread] or some order she knows.

I want to clarify, first of all, that based on what I've been able to discover about alleros from her posts here, I think he was simply mistaken.

Based on what I can glean about her and where she is, she couldnt possibly be talking about any of the groups I was talking about, let alone an actual member.

One, I was talking about several groups (at least 3 specifically that I visited) so to try to pin my descriptions to "insulting" one is not a fair accusation. I was describing a pattern I noticed (a pattern based on specifics, of course) not a specific one of the groups singled out.

Second, I've read my posts again and definitely did NOT say anything that could have revealed the groups with any certainty at all. I must clarify that even my description of any of the groups as having a "monastery" was not meant in the precise sense of the term necessarily, merely a group of male religious who arent diocesan. Not even necessarily contemplative. The men were monkish in their personalities, I never said they were actually monks. Though, even if I had, there are LOTS of monastic or pseudo-monastic communities in the world, I never said anything that would single any one out.

It seems rather paranoid of her, therefore, to say it is "easy to figure out" which group I meant and "obvious" who I was talking about. This isnt true at all, I left out almost all details. The most specific I got, looking back on the posts, was saying that one group had a daughter foundation I visited with 4 residents at the time, which I'm sure describes plenty of communities, especially in this age of so many groups to choose from.

However, it is disturbing, then, that alleros reacted as she did. It seems to confirm all my old fears. I didnt give any specific details about who any of the groups were, so if she "recognized" them in my description...it must have been the bad things she was recognizing in whatever community SHE was talking about. Which raises several issues. One, it means that these sorts of things are more widespread than I had hoped. Two, it means that she sees such traits in whatever community she was talking about (besides revealing some of them himself in his paranoia), and yet instead of critiquing them, is defending them and promoting all the sorts of "secrecy" and blind-acceptance of such things that are some of the very things that disturbed me.

You dont seem to know what groups I am actually talking about, alleros, but I have every right to anonymously and discretely discuss my experiences discerning here, yes, including the BAD experiences here. I dont need to limit that to a spiritual director, though I did talk to him about it too. I was very discreet, but I am allowed to ask in general terms if anyone has shared similar experiences. You reflect the very attitudes I saw in many of these men that scared me away from discernment for a long time. Your reaction was, frankly, bizarre and paranoid, and says more about you and whatever community you were thinking of than about me or the ones I was referring to.

I thank the user nunsense for the level-headed reply, which says it better than I can:
[quote]But I don't think you really need to be quite so condemning of someonewho was simply stating his own experiences and how he interpretedthese. Your reaction seems a little defensive and hyper-sensitive, andunless he is talking about your own community, this seems a little overthe top. If it is indeed your community being described here, then alittle self-evaluation might be in order, just in terms of how thecommunity might be coming across to some people. I am not saying he isright, just that he is entitled to his opinion based on hisexperiences, without being judged as lacking in charity for describingthem. I think he came across as more confused and disillusioned thananything else, wanting to find a "home" but unable to do so. He reallyneeds some compassion here.[/quote]

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

Anyway, on to my actual topic...

I'm currently discerning a call to the priesthood. I pretty much decided that Community religious life probably ISNT for me.

I need a lot of independence. I've been to college, I've lived on my own. To suddenly be asked to live in an institutional setting with all sorts of rules about what I cannot do and when I can leave and where I can go...sort of is a disturbing idea to me.

I'm hoping to find an orthodox seminary that treats their men like independent [u]adults[/u], instead of like children at a boarding school. Of course, a seminarian would be expected to attend class and group events like liturgy, meals, etc...but as someone who has lived independently and self-directed for some time now, the idea of going back to a suffocating atmosphere of interference with even my free time and strictly scheduling everything I must do is just very unappealing.

I know permanent deacons (and married former protestant ministers) get to train in such a way that they are still allowed to have their own lives and be independent. Once they FINISH seminary, diocesan priests seem to get a lot of independence in terms of arranging their own lives (as long as they fulfill their duties, of course). Secular institutes seem to live more like that (though I dont think they train you for priesthood).

But does anyone know any seminaries that would be more free and independent and treat me more like an adult in terms of living my life, like I was treated at University (and, frankly, at home before that even)? Many seminaries, even diocesan, seem to be very cloying and sorta repressive still, like it's boot-camp or something. Curfews, limits on going off-campus, limits on outside contact, remote locations, etc.

That whole atmosphere really creeps me out and cramps my style. I know in the past (and still in the Ethiopian Church) they did apprenticeships as the way to train priests. Does anyone know any seminaries that are not so Institutional?? Perhaps somewhere set in an urban area where there would be a lot to do and see with seminary friends on weekends or during free times? Somewhere where they dont try to micromanage your life or keep you controlled at every moment of the day?

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain

[HisChild]

First of all, welcome back.

I do not know how different the seminary for diocesan priesthood would be different than formation for religious life. You may be able to find a seminary that addresses the requirements you have. However, might I be so charitable as to say that the whole point of having various limits placed on you is not to repress your individuality, but it is a way for you to die to your old ways so that in Christ you are a new man. It is a way to remove self-centered habits and help to imbue you with the cloak of Christian selfless giving. These ways also are a way of helping the discerner/seminarian as well as those overseeing you, be it a spiritual director or instructor, see how malleable you are with giving up your time to the needs of your parishioners placed in front of you. Can you imagine your pastor saying 'I want to be a little independent this weekend and take a long drive instead of offering Mass. You'll have to find someone else this weekend.' Expectations, like curfew, are also a way of helping the seminarian to understand that truly they are not their own men anymore. They will belong to the church, in obedience to the Bishop of their diocese and have to recognize very consciously that all their actions, whether in cassock, collar, or in secular clothing is a reflection on the Church as a whole. It might seem repressive to you, but in all these rubrics you see in seminary life all assist those forming and those being formed to discern whether a man is suitable for the life of a priest and if he's seeking this life with right intention.

Yes, I am a woman and you might be thinking, 'what does she know?' but this was explained to me by a wonderful man and priest when I was in a religious community and we spend some time on a seminary campus taking classes with some seminarians.

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

Thank you for your kind advice.

Yes, I understand that some of the rigors of seminary life are to help a seminarian die to self and learn what sort of commitment he will be making but, at the same time, there is the question of whether that really prepares priests for the "real world" where they will be living alone in many cases and have to be VERY self-directed with their time.

It's not about skipping Mass to take a long drive, but rather that IF you do everything you're supposed to do...then why interfere beyond that? If a priest says his Mass and hears confessions and attends to all the meetings and business he's supposed to...then it's really no one's business how he spends his free time, as long as it isnt in an immoral way. Why are seminarians treated differently and why does there seem to be a double standard when it comes to married seminarians (ie, deacons and former protestant ministers) than the celibate ones? The atmosphere in some places I have seen has been rather patronizing. Like, I could see treating high schoolers that way...but adult men? I dunno...

[Thomist-in-Training]

What she said. If you want to live your life your own way, seminary isn't the place to go. And, I don't think the fact that one enjoys living alone is an indication that one doesn't have a vocation to religion. (I'm not saying you [i]do[/i]. But any kind of vocation, it's not about what you like, in the end, is it? That's the whole point. You [i]might [/i]like it too in some ways, but mostly, it's about what Our Lord likes for you. Did He like undergoing His Passion? Not really, except because He loved us. That is a little strongly phrased and rantish, but true, I think.)

ON THE OTHER HAND, Two of my friends just entered seminaries and one at least does have more freedom than I was expecting. I was sort of, "Since I'm a girl, are there different standards of communication now?" and he was like, "not really."

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

Could you PM me with information on which seminary it is?

It's not that I like to be alone (just the opposite, really) or want to live life "my way"...but I am very much an American I guess when it comes to independence and individuality and the idea of Big Brother breathing down my neck all the time...just doesnt sit well with me anymore. There was a time in my life when I was sort of a mental-fascist and would have liked that idea, but I've grown up since then and the idea of having inconsequential decisions micromanaged as if I were a child just really irks me now. And I dont see why seminaries should have to be like that, at least the diocesan ones, but many do seem to have a vibe like that.

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain

[HisChild]

I understand what you mean... and as my first response post got lost in internet land, I'll try again.

I've heard wonderful things about the [url="http://www.pcj.edu/intro/intropage.html"]Josephinum[/url].

And while it has been many years, I've been to [url="http://www.archny.org/seminary/st-josephs-seminary-dunwoodie/"]St. Joseph's[/url] in Dunwoodie, NY when we had to take classes. This was when Cardinal O' Connor was alive, but I'm sure it's still wonderful now.


Have you seen this link about all the [url="http://consortium.villanova.edu/statements/seminaries.htm"]US Seminaries?[/url]

At any rate, good luck. I'll keep you in prayer!

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

Hmm...thank you for the link to the US seminaries list.

Does anyone know anything about the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago?? I'd never heard of it before, but it looks like it might be more the sort of place I'm talking about. Lay men and women, and religious sisters, etc, apparently all study there too (which is good, as I like a less homogenous atmosphere) and they talk as if people preparing for priestly ordained ministry can go there, and yet it is not the Seminary for the archdiocese of Chicago. Does anyone know what sort of group would send their candidates to priesthood to the CTU or what it's all about??

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain

[Thomist-in-Training]

I don't know, this doesn't seem like it would be my first choice if I were a man:


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It looks like it's a grad school, so maybe the kind of place a diocese might (?) choose to send certain people who'd already got their undergrad and who they wanted to have further studies in a certain area.

[Thomist-in-Training]

Oh--this explains it more. Actually they were founded as a seminary for religious--not diocesan. Now they also accept other random people who want theologicalish grad degrees.

[quote][b]founding mission of preparing religious community seminarians for priesthood, [/b]Catholic Theological Union has become one of the foremost graduate education centers in the world for preparing lay men and women to serve the Church and society. Spurred by a renewed appreciation of the lay vocation at the Second Vatican Council and by a critical need to sustain the Church’s extraordinary commitment to service through its parishes, schools, hospitals, chaplaincies, social service centers, and a host of other works of justice, mercy, and compassion, a new generation of men and women have been inspired to lead lives of dedication to the values and mission of the gospel.

With the support of its twenty-five sponsoring religious communities, numerous foundations, and the generosity of its friends and donors, CTU is committed to expanding its scholarship capacity in order to provide the Church with well-prepared, highly motivated, and competent lay men and women. These students preparing for a life of service are truly “witnesses to hope” and deserving of our support. This All Saints festival will celebrate the grace of the lay vocation, give thanks for all who have supported this cause, and be an inspiration to recommitment in the service of the Church. Please join us.[/quote]

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

[quote]I don't know, this doesn't seem like it would be my first choice if I were a man:[/quote]

Lol. I actually take that event as a good sign in terms of being the sort of place I'm talking about.

I mean, the fact that they are apparently so liberal is rather disturbing, as I myself am very traditional and orthodox.

But, at the same time, I think I could stomach it. I mean, it's not like you're [i]required[/i] to attend these events.

On the other hand, the very fact that they exist is to me a sign that this place isnt all repressed and dull and stuff. The fact that they are having a Swing Band with dancing, hors d'oeuvres, and drinks and arent all wringing their hands like old women over whether that is too decadent or going to corrupt everyone...makes me believe that it is the sort of open, personable, independent atmosphere I could handle.

Would I necessarily attend the gala personally? No, not really my kind of thing. But that it's the kind of place that can have one and not have everyone freak out means they arent the repressed wet-blankets that I'm really trying to avoid. On the contrary, it sounds like a pretty fun atmosphere.

There is a cafeteria, but it doesnt seem like there are any required scheduled meals. And it doesnt look like students are bound to attending any sorts of (presumably awful) liturgies together, but St John Cantius is only 15 minutes drive...!

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain

[humbleheart]

A few years ago I was absolutely sure that I was going to be a religious sister. I knew exactly what sort of convent, too. I gave a lot of thought to my personality and tastes when I was making my 'decision', until I came to the uncomfortable realisation that what I wanted might not be what I needed.

I was trying to turn the religious life into a career choice. As a result, many of the stipulations and preconditions that I was laying down inside my head were at odds with the spirit of the life. I get that feeling with some of the things you've written as well, particularly with what you say about 'liking a more homogenous atmosphere' and trying to work out which diocese would send you to your university of choice. Once you are ordained a priest, you could be sent anywhere. Anywhere. What if you don't like the atmosphere or the demographic of the parish where you're placed after ordination? You could be there for decades, and you would have a sacred responsibility to stay there.

This is why holy obedience is so important in the seminary, even though diocesan priests don't take a formal vow the way monks do. There is every chance that during your ordained ministry, you are going to be asked to do something (probably several things) that you don't like and wouldn't have chosen personally. You will need to accomplish the work that you're given with genuine love and warmth and care, even if you don't particularly like the parish you're in or the priests you're working with or some other aspect of the job. It's difficult to learn how to do something you dislike in a loving way, but humbly taking direction from superiors in a seminary and living with a group of people whose personalities might not mesh well with yours is a very good way of learning. It's nothing to do with Big Brother trying to take away your independence and individuality. It's what it takes to become a good priest.

[quote name='CruxOfTheMatterAgain' date='07 November 2009 - 06:23 AM' timestamp='1257571410' post='1997594']
Would I necessarily attend the gala personally? No, not really my kind of thing. But that it's the kind of place that can have one and not have everyone freak out means they arent the repressed wet-blankets that I'm really trying to avoid. On the contrary, it sounds like a pretty fun atmosphere.

There is a cafeteria, but it doesnt seem like there are any required scheduled meals. And it doesnt look like students are bound to attending any sorts of (presumably awful) liturgies together, but St John Cantius is only 15 minutes drive...!
[/quote]

Think about this. Are you seriously proposing to study for the priesthood alongside these men, but not attend liturgies with them or go to their social events? Praying in community is important, even if the liturgy isn't traditional or even particularly beautiful. These men would be seminarians just like you and you would need each other's prayers and companionship. You can't set the terms on which you give those two things.

As for shared meals, think about all the times that such meals appear in the Bible. They are a wonderful expression of community. You're prepared to study at this place because you like the atmosphere, but you don't even plan on eating with the people who study there too?

[organwerke]

[quote name='CruxOfTheMatterAgain' date='07 November 2009 - 05:42 AM' timestamp='1257565366' post='1997532']
However, it is disturbing, then, that alleros reacted as she did. [/quote]

Maybe you are right.
But I confess I have often the same feeling reading you.
It looks like in your opinion faults belong always to someone else.
I can understand you are looking for an open-minded seminarian reality, I can understand and I also share your opinion that some religious institutions are sometimes a little too rigid...
For example, I would have recommended to you the MC Fathers (founded by blessed Mother Therese of Calcutta) -osr, also, the Rogationists Father (founded in Italy, in the US they are here: rcj.org/home2/component/option,com_congregation/rub,province/task,view/Itemid,131/p_id,6/lang,it/): I know some of them and they all look like very cheerful, natural, friendly and...OK!), but they are both religious and you don't like...
Of course there are many other seminaries that are nearer to your ideal.
But, if you are so convinced to enter a seminary where you haven't to accept ANYTHING you don't like...do you think you will ever find what you are looking for?

Edited November 7, 2009 by organwerke

[AccountDeleted]

I guess my question is whether or not you have a spiritual director helping you with this? You are trying to make all these decisions based on what you think you want, but it might be that someone outside your head could see things a little more clearly, especially a priest who has been through what you are going through.

I just started seeing a wonderful new spiritual director, an FSSP priest, and he told me things about myself that were spot on, but that I hadn't really thought about deeply. And he has given me advice about my discernment that just feels so right for me at this point in time.

Researching and gathering information about a lot of different places is ok, but then take all this to someone who can help - not only advise you about the practical aspects of becoming a priest, but someone who will also guide your soul. My prayers are with you.

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

[quote]'liking a more homogenousatmosphere'[/quote]

To be clear, I said I like a LESS homogenous atmosphere.

[quote]Once you are ordained a priest, you could be sentanywhere. Anywhere. What if you don't like the atmosphere or thedemographic of the parish where you're placed after ordination? Youcould be there for decades, and you would have a sacred responsibilityto stay there.[/quote]

I think this is a romanticized view, to a degree. I know lots of priests, and trust me, there is plenty of wheeling-and-dealing and "negotiating" about assignments, salaries, etc.

In my dioceses, apparently, a priest who has enough of his own money saved up is pretty much allowed to go on leave or retire whenever he wants as long as he doesnt expect the diocese to pay him during that time.

The romantic view of this all as some sacred thing with pure-motives and sheer selflessness is a great ideal...but in reality, the day to day running of the "business" of the Church is much more petty, trivial, and mundane.

[quote]It's nothing to do with Big Brother trying totake away your independence and individuality. It's what it takes to become a good priest.[/quote]

Again, I think this is romanticized. Plenty of men go through this process and DONT come out as good priests. If anything, I would say it has been a spectacular failure in the past 40 years, letting a lot of defective psyches through.

The number of priests who arent REALLY being celibate is apparently scandalously high, and many priests are in therapy for other things (alcoholism, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, etc).

It seems to me that they still care more about whether a man can be an obedient conformist than about any other criteria. There are lots of good normal guys I know who have told me they couldnt stand being institutionalized like that, but who I know are more mature than a lot of the stunted adolescent psyches I've met in numerous seminaries.

Are my motives entirely pure? I doubt anyone's are. But I really want to serve Christ and His Church, help people spiritually, as a priest. Many men are in seminaries running from sexuality. Many men are in seminaries because they crave discipline and obsessive rigidity or authoritarianism. Many are just looking for an easy job or to be taken care of (priests can make their work as hard, or easy, as they choose in most places...the maximum effort can be heroic, but the minimum requirements can be very little, frankly).

Compared to all those unhealthy motives, I think my desire to be treated as an independent American adult instead of treated like some adolescent at boot-camp or boarding-school...is just fine.

[quote]But, if you are so convinced to enter a seminary where you haven't toaccept ANYTHING you don't like...do you think you will ever find whatyou are looking for?[/quote]

I was able to find a University that met all my personal needs. If I went into a secular career, I'd be able to find one that met all my needs. Why should that be so unbelievable in a seminary? Why must they all be so rigid, especially when that hasnt seemed to guarantee anything about the psychological quality of the men emerging (if anything, it is has created a clerical culture severely turned in on itself)?

Edited November 7, 2009 by CruxOfTheMatterAgain