OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 I'd love to see your logic behind that. If heaven does exist then you, Pope Benedict and I are all unworthy for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1257659493' post='1998099'] I'd love to see your logic behind that. If heaven does exist then you, Pope Benedict and I are all unworthy for it. [/quote] Everyone is unworthy of it. That's where God's perfect mercy comes in. You know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingStone Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 Can I just give you St. Thomas' philosophy behind how a) God being almighty (or omnipotent) doesn't conflict in any matter with the idea that b) there are things that God cannot do, as it is contrary to His essence. I'm going to give it to you straight from St. Tommy. These are rather short, but dense, and not too difficult. These are from Book II of the Summa Contra Gentiles (best stuff). [url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_22.htm"]God is Almighty[/url] [url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_25.htm"]In what sense some things are said to be Impossible to the Almighty[/url] Oh how I love St. Tommy. He's my patron. Peace guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is. I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier: The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway. One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='LivingStone' date='08 November 2009 - 01:21 AM' timestamp='1257661283' post='1998109'] Can I just give you St. Thomas' philosophy behind how a) God being almighty (or omnipotent) doesn't conflict in any matter with the idea that b) there are things that God cannot do, as it is contrary to His essence. I'm going to give it to you straight from St. Tommy. These are rather short, but dense, and not too difficult. These are from Book II of the Summa Contra Gentiles (best stuff). [url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_22.htm"]God is Almighty[/url] [url="http://www2.nd.edu/Departments/Maritain/etext/gc2_25.htm"]In what sense some things are said to be Impossible to the Almighty[/url] Oh how I love St. Tommy. He's my patron. Peace guys! [/quote] Thank you! Will read tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 12:27 AM' timestamp='1257661641' post='1998113'] You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is. I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier: The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway. One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him. [/quote] Wouldn't it be a punishment to force someone to choose Him, even though they'd consistently rejected Him at every opportunity? Furthermore, wouldn't that imply a lack of free will that goes against what we believe about Creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 November 2009 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1257661931' post='1998116'] Wouldn't it be a punishment to force someone to choose Him, even though they'd consistently rejected Him at every opportunity? Furthermore, wouldn't that imply a lack of free will that goes against what we believe about Creation? [/quote] If you want to ask that you have to first answer this: Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus_Mariae Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1257662547' post='1998120'] If you want to ask that you have to first answer this: Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences? [/quote] Are you familiar with invincible ignorance? Divine Mercy will handle those who do not know any better and have no conviction to turn from sins they do know are sinful. My post above wasn't meant to encapsulate all cases of human damnation. I know that it's not that simple. However, the scenario of a hell-sent soul is rather black and white...I just don't know the specifics of this scenario (categorically). That's way the Church never proclaims a soul to be damned. What I was trying to illustrate was, in its reality, how a soul ends up in hell. This is done by a rejection of God's love. How this is done...I'm sure it varies. Some may be willfully ignorant of the truth, some may reject the truth when they had it and didn't persevere, some may have it but be so arrogant about it they are more concerned with arrogantly parading it then bringing others to it. Who know the method with which a soul chooses to reject God...that is not black and white. That a soul rejects God and then merits eternity without him...is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:27 AM' timestamp='1257661641' post='1998113'] You're proposing a God who punishes those who displease him. You can create as many little propositions and side arguments as you like (the soul cannot stand His love etc.) but, at its most basic, you believe in a benevolent creator who creates a soul knowing it will go to Hell and allows this to happen to the vast majority of people when He could simply embrace and accept those who had rejected him in this life. If that is not a contradiction then I don't know what is. [/quote] Love requires free will. Covenants require free will. Both state "I am fully yours and you are fully mine", and both require both parties to enter in freely. In all of history, in all of his covenants, God never broke his side of the bargain. Humans did. We would choose something other than God either out of fear or selfishness, and it would always lead people to ruin. It always did and it always does. but God always came back to try it again. No father could ever imagine sending their newborn son to the pain and suffering of hell no matter how bad of an act the son did. But no father has the power to stop a grown up son from saying "eff u, dad" and moving out of the house. To forceably hold the son in the house is not a loving relationship. Catholics believe that only God knows the true hearts of men and is the only one with the power, knowledge and ability to properly judge a person based on what they know of God and if they were able to "truly" deny him. This actually puts more burden on the faithful. The more a person grows in faith the more painful to God is committing a sin. The faithful person knows God more intimately, and truly knows that by sinning he is choosing something other than God - for God is true goodness. IE: the faithful person [i]does[/i] know better. Catholics only know of a handful of people who are in heaven (compared to how many could be up there), Catholics have no idea who is in hell. We don't even claim Judas is there. That's up to God. But we weren't made to live in ignorance of the truth. The truth of who God is is to be spread to everyone not to make them more culpable, but because a relationship with God is the point of life. God wants all of us to be with him. Free will is the only way to have love happen. We should really put a sticky thread up that explains this whole "God sends people to hell" thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) So we're defining perfection as a weakness, then. Edited November 10, 2009 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1257662547' post='1998120'] If you want to ask that you have to first answer this: Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences? [/quote] There are many factors that go into salvation. God keeps in mind that some people do not know any better and or were in circumstances where virtue was never taught to them. Maybe they were surrounded by hypocritcal and flat out nasty Christians and couldn't bring themselves to accepting "this so called God" because of how His people acted, thinking that it was just a lie and never was familiar with anyone devout who practiced what they preached and lived out the faith as they should have. I would argue that someone like that would not be damned to hell. Perhaps they would spend time in Purgatory for a while or who knows apart from God? God takes into consideration our circumstances. In theory, what if someone was brought up in a country of atheists where no one had ever heard of God. How could they reject Him then if they didn't know Him? God also keeps in mind how we were raised, the environment that we spent our lives in, whether we did our best or at least tried to, whether we say were mentally ill or mentally challenged which affected our decisions and thought processes. He also takes other factors into consideration as well that I probably can't list because His ways are far above mine or any other human being. I would argue though that it is not impossible for someone to completely and totally reject God. How many have? Has there been anyone who has done so? I don't know. I'm not saying that no one is in hell or that anyone is in hell. In theory though, someone or multiple people could be. It is available for anyone who completely and totally rejects God. It is possible for someone's heart to know better than to do this, but turn their hearts away from Him anyway. Sometimes people are extremely stubborn. (Believe me, there are times when my will is far to set to my own desires when I know better. It wouldn't surprise me if there was someone who truly did it to the extreme level of totally rejecting God.) God doesn't want [i]ANYONE [/i]to go to hell. Just read through the bible and you will see throughout time how merciful He has been. Did He have to create us? No. He had no need for us whatsoever. Did He have to promise us a savior? No. Did He have to send us a savior? No. Did He have to ask His Only Begotten Son to Die for us? No. Did He have to let Him do it? No. Did He have to forgive those who betrayed His Son, tortured Him, mocked Him, and murdered Him? No. He loves us unconditionally. It's we who have the problem, not Him. Just look at how merciful He was to the Israelites in the Old Testament. They constantly turned their backs on Him, whined despite how good He was to them, worshipped other gods, but guess what? God didn't give up on them. He sent them prophets in an effort to be reconciled with them. He brought them home from exile after they repented and came back to Him. He never left them, even when He was teaching them the hard way. Do not parents do the same thing? Are parents being cruel for correcting their children or for denying them what they want and instead give them what they need whether they realize it or not? No, they have their best interests at heart. They are doing it for their own good out of love for them. If you love someone, you do what is best for them and sometimes that involves tough love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted November 10, 2009 Share Posted November 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1257662547' post='1998120'] Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. [/quote] Although that is a very comforting thought, it is not something that can be proven. In fact, anyone who ends up in hell will have chosen that end. Edited November 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='08 November 2009 - 01:42 AM' timestamp='1257662547' post='1998120'] If you want to ask that you have to first answer this: Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the very most a limited comprehension of the consequences? [/quote] We choose hell indirectly by choosing to live in a manor worthy of hell, not by having hell and complete understanding of it placed in front of us and then choosing heaven or hell. Some would argue that we must know and understand with absolute lucidity what hell is in order to choose hell. The argument could be made with a fair degree of accuracy that no one would knowingly choose everlasting torment. However, we can also see that hell is eternity outside of God's grace, so we can also say that in order to choose hell, a person must understand the value of grace and reject it. Far more people do this willingly, presuming that they will have the chance to repent and procrastinating their conversions. It is far easier and more common to reject goodness and virtue and grace than it is to choose evil. However, the truth is that choosing hell requires less than completely understanding the good and rejecting it. To reject any part of the good in a way using our entire nature (our minds, wills, and bodies by knowing an action is evil, choosing to do it anyway, and actually doing it [although the sin begins in the choosing, so that if we are prevented from carrying it out, we have still sinned])...to reject any part of the good in a way using our entire nature is to reject the whole good with all that we are. Such constitutes a mortal sin. We choose hell by destroying ourselves. Through sin, we damage our nature (just as through virtue our nature is divinized) and make ourselves incapable of beholding God. We reject even a particular good in a total way and in so doing reject all goodness as a principle and God who is Goodness. That is how we choose hell without understanding hell completely or even understanding goodness completely. We need only reject a particular form of the good in a concrete and total way, and we are undone. Thank God for Confession! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 11, 2009 Share Posted November 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' date='11 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1257899676' post='1999966'] We choose hell indirectly by choosing to live in a manor worthy of hell, not by having hell and complete understanding of it placed in front of us and then choosing heaven or hell. Thank God for Confession! [/quote] The same logic as, people don't choose to go to prison. They go there because of their folly. Some atheists claim they are happy with the idea of eternal nothing. I'm sure they will get their wish! In fact that would be my second choice rather than reincarnation. BTW Did you hear about the guy that was so dumb that he thought ReInCarnation was changing the flowers in the vase. Edited November 11, 2009 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 My question is how a being that is perfect can create something that is imperfect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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