OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 Do you think it makes sense to say that God, who is the creator of reality, is bound by it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 01:52 AM' timestamp='1257580345' post='1997655'] Do you think it makes sense to say that God, who is the creator of reality, is bound by it? [/quote] I think it's more accurate to say that God IS reality, so to go against reality would be to deny Himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 I KNEW you were going to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 01:56 AM' timestamp='1257580601' post='1997658'] I KNEW you were going to say that. [/quote] I guess it's got a certain intuitive truth to it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat22 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 can god build a wall so high he can't climb it? if he can build it, he can't climb it. if he can climb it, he can't build it. maybe this is just wordplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='pat22' date='07 November 2009 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1257621265' post='1997802'] can god build a wall so high he can't climb it? if he can build it, he can't climb it. if he can climb it, he can't build it. maybe this is just wordplay. [/quote] It's a self contradictory question that can't logically be asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='tinytherese' date='07 November 2009 - 04:30 PM' timestamp='1257571833' post='1997596'] Think about it, God not being capable of deceiving or being deceived. This is a strength, not a weakness. He is incapable of sinning, but we are not. He is the one who is really free, not us. [/quote] Quite true! God cannot be both a failure and a success. He cannot pull the wings off of a butterfly for fun. I did when I was a child and now could not. This does not mean that I as a child was more powerful than God or my present self, in fact the reverse is true. I'm sure that if God could take me to eternal life now without more suffering and ultimately the experience of death, then he would. But he doesn't! so he can't! God is not all powerful in the short term, it is only in the long term that he will eradicate suffering and death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 November 2009 - 03:16 PM' timestamp='1257621394' post='1997804'] It's a self contradictory question that can't logically be asked. [/quote] agreed... and more colloqually (sp) speaking...it's a lie. God cannot lie. God cannot make a squared circle, as it is a lie. A circle is round, a square is not. He cannot make a rock bigger than he can lift, as he is all-powerful, and the converse, by definition, limits his power...and therefore would be a lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 Some would say that allowing a soul to go to Hell is acting contrary to the omnibenevolence of God. Some would say that creating a world when he knows the vast majority of people are going to end up in Hell contradicts his nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Servus_Mariae Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:27 PM' timestamp='1257654422' post='1998027'] Some would say that allowing a soul to go to Hell is acting contrary to the omnibenevolence of God. Some would say that creating a world when he knows the vast majority of people are going to end up in Hell contradicts his nature. [/quote] People who say that are subscribing to their own notion of what it means to be good. For God to be "all good" He has to be some sort of permissive parent who lets His child do what he wants and then give him a reward for it. This is not the case. God in His benevolence realizes the cruelty of creating a human being with the sole prerogative to render Him praise. This is not love. God would be a desperate loser who had to create beings to express love for Him. Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice. Could God really be considered "good" if He makes us do what we don't want to do and receive the consequences we do not desire? Would God make us spend eternity with Him even though we so clearly indicated by our actions and internal disposition that we didn't even want to spend a moment with Him on earth much less for eternity? Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='08 November 2009 - 03:40 PM' timestamp='1257655213' post='1998034'] Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice. Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved. [/quote] Hell [u]IS[/u] separation from God's love. People choose hell by their own actions and free will. I would imagine that since God loves us he would be sad when a person chooses hell rather than what he offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='Servus_Mariae' date='07 November 2009 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1257655213' post='1998034'] People who say that are subscribing to their own notion of what it means to be good. For God to be "all good" He has to be some sort of permissive parent who lets His child do what he wants and then give him a reward for it. This is not the case. God in His benevolence realizes the cruelty of creating a human being with the sole prerogative to render Him praise. This is not love. God would be a desperate loser who had to create beings to express love for Him. Love necessitates choice to reciprocate love to the lover or reject it. Spending a life rejecting the lover is a choice. Could God really be considered "good" if He makes us do what we don't want to do and receive the consequences we do not desire? Would God make us spend eternity with Him even though we so clearly indicated by our actions and internal disposition that we didn't even want to spend a moment with Him on earth much less for eternity? Hell is proof of God's love not the antithesis of it. Hell indicates that God honors us with a choice to Love Him. No hell would indicate God's despotic and forced pulling to Himself disregarding the choice, which is the reverence demanded upon the lover for the beloved. [/quote] Come on now, you're painting a very black and white picture. If God gives us free will then he must also give us an eternal consequence for our bad choices? There are many alternatives that an All Powerful and all loving God could pursue that do not include sending souls to eternal punishment for failing to live up to his standards.God could, and if he was truly omnibenevolent would, save all souls from Hell or, at the very least, let the souls who do not merit heaven become non-existent. The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway.One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1257659045' post='1998091'] Come on now, you're painting a very black and white picture. If God gives us free will then he must also give us an eternal consequence for our bad choices? There are many alternatives that an All Powerful and all loving God could pursue that do not include sending souls to eternal punishment for failing to live up to his standards.God could, and if he was truly omnibenevolent would, save all souls from Hell or, at the very least, let the souls who do not merit heaven become non-existent. The whole idea of revenge and punishment is a completely human and visceral anyway.One would hope that an all loving God could transcend the desire to punish people who upset him. [/quote] What would you say to the assertion that hell is ultimately the choice of the individual, and God merely allows them ultimately to reject Him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 8, 2009 Author Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='08 November 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1257658106' post='1998071'] Hell [u]IS[/u] separation from God's love. People choose hell by their own actions and free will. I would imagine that since God loves us he would be sad when a person chooses hell rather than what he offers. [/quote] Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the most a limited comprehension of the consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1257659293' post='1998094'] Clearly no one would choose hell if they had full knowledge of what Hell was. I doubt many people believe they're going to Hell. If someone doesn't have full knowledge of their choices then how can they be held completely accountable for them? How can culpability for an action be attributed to someone when they may not have known it was wrong and had at the most a limited comprehension of the consequences? [/quote] When we say that a person ultimately rejects God, it's because they, in the end, cannot accept His love and cannot stand to spend eternity with Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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