OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 This was mentioned vaguely in another thread but I thought it deserved its own. It's often said that nothing is impossible for God while it's also said that God cannot deceive because he is perfect truth. Is this a limitation on His power? Why/why not? Another forum member said: "St Augustine addresses the same question in the "Confessions." Something to the effect of, God can not do what is contradictory to perfect love. If, taking free will away is against prefect love, then He can not do it." Humans can deceive and act contrary to "perfect love". It may not be good, but they have the ability to do it. If God cannot then how is he all powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 God cannot perform a logical impossibility... like make a four sided triangle. It simply doesn't make sense. Since God's three essential attributes are omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, He cannot do something in contradiction of these because it's a logical impossibility, no different from my example above. You can't simultaneously be six feet tall and not six feet tall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 is God powerful enough to destroy him(her/it)self? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aalpha1989 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='06 November 2009 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1257562373' post='1997483'] is God powerful enough to destroy him(her/it)self? [/quote] Define destroy. God died on the cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='Jesus_lol' date='06 November 2009 - 08:52 PM' timestamp='1257562373' post='1997483'] is God powerful enough to destroy him(her/it)self? [/quote] How can an eternal being cease being eternal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxOfTheMatterAgain Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 God can do anything, but some series of words are not "things". You may think like you know what they mean, but they are really cognitively meaningless. "Could God make something both exist and not exist" may SEEM like a real idea because it contains several constituent parts which are real ideas...but as whole "both exist and not exist" is just a meaningless string of words. Nonsense, ultimately. It's like asking "Could God purple monkey dishwasher?"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 exactly. not sure if i was going anywhere with that, it just occured to me, curious. could God wish himself into un-existence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 09:28 PM' timestamp='1257560918' post='1997444'] God cannot perform a logical impossibility... like make a four sided triangle. It simply doesn't make sense. Since God's three essential attributes are omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence, He cannot do something in contradiction of these because it's a logical impossibility, no different from my example above. You can't simultaneously be six feet tall and not six feet tall. [/quote] So God is bound by logic? Meaning there are some things he cannot do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='06 November 2009 - 09:36 PM' timestamp='1257564968' post='1997527'] So God is bound by logic? Meaning there are some things he cannot do. [/quote] Meaning there are some things that make no sense to even ask. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 10:41 PM' timestamp='1257565287' post='1997530'] Meaning there are some things that make no sense to even ask. Just because you can say it doesn't mean it makes sense. [/quote] Asking how nothing can be impossible for God while at the same time his nature (benevolent) makes certain things (deceit) impossible for God isn't one of those questions. How can anything be possible for God when his very nature makes it impossible for him to deceive (your words)? The comparison to the triangle doesn't work because "triangle" is just a word that humans give a particular shape. If I were to say "I am a physical being (as God is a omnibenevolent being) and for this reason I cannot walk through walls" then it would be quite correct to say that walking through walls is impossible for me because the fact that I am physical makes it logically impossible. How is it any different for God? A logical impossibility is still an impossibility. If one (God included) is not capable of something then they are not all powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='06 November 2009 - 11:11 PM' timestamp='1257570696' post='1997588'] Asking how nothing can be impossible for God while at the same time his nature (benevolent) makes certain things (deceit) impossible for God isn't one of those questions. How can anything be possible for God when his very nature makes it impossible for him to deceive (your words)? The comparison to the triangle doesn't work because "triangle" is just a word that humans give a particular shape. If I were to say "I am a physical being (as God is a omnibenevolent being) and for this reason I cannot walk through walls" then it would be quite correct to say that walking through walls is impossible for me because the fact that I am physical makes it logically impossible. How is it any different for God? A logical impossibility is still an impossibility. If one (God included) is not capable of something then they are not all powerful. [/quote] A logical impossibility doesn't even make sense to suggest though. It implies one part of reality contradicting another part of reality. Can you suggest any time that reality contradicts itself? We are limited by space, which is why we cannot walk through walls. God is not limited by space; this is a belief we hold. Is it logically impossible for us to walk through walls, or merely physically impossible? I'd argue physically, but not logically. Anything is possible for God, but logical impossibilities are irrelevant because they just cannot be rationally suggested. God is order and has ordered the universe. He is order and cannot become disorder, because it simply doesn't exist and is not part of Him. God is reality, and that is not part of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinytherese Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Think about it, God not being capable of deceiving or being deceived. This is a strength, not a weakness. He is incapable of sinning, but we are not. He is the one who is really free, not us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caritas Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1257570696' post='1997588'] Asking how nothing can be impossible for God while at the same time his nature (benevolent) makes certain things (deceit) impossible for God isn't one of those questions. How can anything be possible for God when his very nature makes it impossible for him to deceive (your words)? The comparison to the triangle doesn't work because "triangle" is just a word that humans give a particular shape. If I were to say "I am a physical being (as God is a omnibenevolent being) and for this reason I cannot walk through walls" then it would be quite correct to say that walking through walls is impossible for me because the fact that I am physical makes it logically impossible. How is it any different for God? A logical impossibility is still an impossibility. If one (God included) is not capable of something then they are not all powerful. [/quote] This argument takes a dualistic approach, but evil and evil things are simply the absence of good. Evil is the absence of God, of love, but isn't something in and of itself. Edited November 7, 2009 by Caritas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OraProMe Posted November 7, 2009 Author Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 November 2009 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1257570969' post='1997590'] A logical impossibility doesn't even make sense to suggest though. It implies one part of reality contradicting another part of reality. Can you suggest any time that reality contradicts itself? We are limited by space, which is why we cannot walk through walls. God is not limited by space; this is a belief we hold. Is it logically impossible for us to walk through walls, or merely physically impossible? I'd argue physically, but not logically. Anything is possible for God, but logical impossibilities are irrelevant because they just cannot be rationally suggested. God is order and has ordered the universe. He is order and cannot become disorder, because it simply doesn't exist and is not part of Him. God is reality, and that is not part of reality. [/quote] "Is it logically impossible for us to walk through walls, or merely physically impossible? I'd argue physically, but not logically." The reason it is logically impossible is because we are physical. "Anything is possible for God," Except deception because, by his nature (what you say), it is impossible for him to deceive. "but logical impossibilities are irrelevant because they just cannot be rationally suggested" A logical impossibility has to have something at its base. It is not a logically impossibility because it's a logical impossibility. It is not circular. Again, it is a logical impossibility that I could walk through a wall because I'm physical. That is still an impossibility and limitation of my abilities. Wouldn't the same applies for the idea of God deceiving? If God cannot deceive (because of his nature) then he is limited in his power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='07 November 2009 - 01:43 AM' timestamp='1257579781' post='1997652'] "Is it logically impossible for us to walk through walls, or merely physically impossible? I'd argue physically, but not logically." The reason it is logically impossible is because we are physical. "Anything is possible for God," Except deception because, by his nature (what you say), it is impossible for him to deceive. "but logical impossibilities are irrelevant because they just cannot be rationally suggested" A logical impossibility has to have something at its base. It is not a logically impossibility because it's a logical impossibility. It is not circular. Again, it is a logical impossibility that I could walk through a wall because I'm physical. That is still an impossibility and limitation of my abilities. Wouldn't the same applies for the idea of God deceiving? If God cannot deceive (because of his nature) then he is limited in his power. [/quote] It's impossible because it's not the nature of *our* reality that disallows it, it's the nature of all of reality. Our reality (being physical) pre-empts us from walking through walls. The nature of reality itself, however does not, because I believe that on a quantum level, things can pass through other things, and certainly we can imagine a metaphysical reality which is not limited in such a way. However reality itself, not just our own, but everything we can possible conceive, disallows the logical impossibilities that I'm speaking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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