Could God Do This?

[Noel's angel]

Questions like this just really annoy me. They aren't about knowing an answer, just about being able to have a convincing argument.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='06 November 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1257535195' post='1997242']
True, but could God maybe bring about the candidate's death? In which case the event of his election would not occur and free will remain intact.
[/quote]


He could, but I doubt God gets into our politics very much.

Jim

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='06 November 2009 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1257535422' post='1997249']
He could, but I doubt God gets into our politics very much.

Jim
[/quote]

perhaps. I personally believe He is far more involved in our daily lives than we might think, including general events.

But regardless, this is off-topic now as it no longer relates to the OP question.

[Nihil Obstat]

Ah, ok, I've figured it out!

It's not a question of can or cannot. It's a question of would or would not.

God would not do such a thing because to do so would be to imply that the original reality was somehow lacking, which, being God's own Creation, it cannot be. So whether or not He 'can' is irrelevant, because for God to revoke reality is to reject some small part of His own Creation.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1257535983' post='1997259']
Ah, ok, I've figured it out! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif[/img]

It's not a question of can or cannot. It's a question of would or would not.

God would not do such a thing because to do so would be to imply that the original reality was somehow lacking, which, being God's own Creation, it cannot be. So whether or not He 'can' is irrelevant, because for God to revoke reality is to reject some small part of His own Creation.
[/quote]


OK.

Somewhere I read, " true freedom isn't necessarily the privilege of having the choice between good or evil, but rather, the ability to chose only good."

God being perfectly free can only chose good.

Jim

[scardella]

Of course He can change it to have never happened. However, that would remove our memory of it ever happening too... so, we'd never actually be aware that He intervened in that way.

[Nihil Obstat]

Considering one of God's essential attributes is His omnibenevolence, to say that He could choose to be immoral is a logical impossibility. It's exactly the same as a four sided triangle or me being simultaneously exactly six feet tall and not exactly six feet tall.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='scardella' date='06 November 2009 - 01:36 PM' timestamp='1257536170' post='1997263']
Of course He can change it to have never happened. However, that would remove our memory of it ever happening too... so, we'd never actually be aware that He intervened in that way.
[/quote]
I understand that point, but we were getting a bit deeper than that. It wouldn't be whether or not we remember an objective event, but whether or not the objective event could be taken back. Not so that nobody remembered it, but so that it never happened in the first place.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 03:36 PM' timestamp='1257536210' post='1997264']
Considering one of God's essential attributes is His omnibenevolence, to say that He could choose to be immoral is a logical impossibility. It's exactly the same as a four sided triangle or me being simultaneously exactly six feet tall and not exactly six feet tall.
[/quote]


Yes, well said. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif[/img]


Jim

Edited November 6, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='06 November 2009 - 02:38 PM' timestamp='1257536281' post='1997266']
I understand that point, but we were getting a bit deeper than that. It wouldn't be whether or not we remember an objective event, but whether or not the objective event could be taken back. Not so that nobody remembered it, but so that it never happened in the first place.
[/quote]

Why would God need to do such a thing? If He is omniscient, omnipotent and did not want the objective event to happen, he could just not allow it to happen in the first place. He would then have no need to undo the event.

Edit: Missed your post on the first page, so it appears I am more or less just poorly restating your already founded conclusion.

Edited November 6, 2009 by CatholicCid

[AccountDeleted]

He might if it were to His greater glory. Lazarus died, but Jesus raised him again to show God's power and glory.

I don't know how changing a political candidate would do this. I mean, He could have changed the Caesars or Pontius Pilate, but He didn't. He has a plan we can't see or understand, maybe Stephen Harper is part of that plan? (believe it or not!)

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='CatholicCid' date='06 November 2009 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1257545677' post='1997361']
Why would God need to do such a thing? If He is omniscient, omnipotent and did not want the objective event to happen, he could just not allow it to happen in the first place. He would then have no need to undo the event.

Edit: Missed your post on the first page, so it appears I am more or less just poorly restating your already founded conclusion.
[/quote]
Exactly, hence my "I figured it out" on the previous page.

[CruxOfTheMatterAgain]

I'm not even sure the question is cognitively meaningful. If God did it...how would anyone but Him ever know? If He changes it to "never happened" does that mean in our time-line (ie, the "real" timeline) or any hypothetical time-line? If it never happened, does that just mean all memory was erased, or really never happening. But God is eternal, so any such "revisions" He'd have already made from outside time, and thus how exactly would they be revisions? By what standard would the thing have been said to "have happened" if God made it so that it "never happened"? The very question makes no sense.

Basically, the question is semantically meaningless upon further analysis.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='07 November 2009 - 04:37 AM' timestamp='1257529023' post='1997158']

Can God take an event that happened and make it have never happened?


[/quote]

Definitely! Time is a parameter of the fysical universe, so God created time. Jesus entered a room though the doors were locked but let Thomas feel his fysical wounds. Therefore God can change the laws of fysics. And that is why he can be talking to you at the same time as listening to me babble on. God can be everywhere and everywhen at once. However having said that, God would not change history because if he did it would mean that the original was a mistake and God does not make mistakes. When I needed to rent a house with a big shed to store all my jazz, one appeared even though houses for rent were in short supply. God provided my need but I don't think he deprived the owner of his free will, he just gave him a different choice that was better than his others. In other words the owner got a tenant who pays his rent on time and looks after his house. He doesn't care if I am a nut case who talks to and hears god.
To consider the effect of altering past events. Consider a multi player computer game. If I make a mistake and revert to a previous saved game, I do not erase the history of the mistake but it becomes a redundant spur and I create an alternate history. Other players will become aware of this alteration. Some may decide that it affects them adversely and will revert to a saved game, this could have the butterfly effect of a total disruption. But eventually it will sort it's self out and the game will continue on a new series of events. But the alternate will still exist in history as a dead end spur of events.

[Mark of the Cross]

I've had an after thought on this subject. For God to take time back down it's time line un-eventing would be meaningless because of relativity! What did time reverse relative to? It implies that something continued forward. Time could go back and forward 100 times a day but it would be no different than not doing it once unless it was occurring in relation to something. Time can slow down near a black hole because it is relative to universal time. But we cannot say that the universe is rotating, because it has no shore with which to determine that it is rotating. Therefore these things cannot happen unless God creates another universe with which to use as a reference frame.