Father And Son Bond

[JimR-OCDS]

I use to hunt with both gun and bow and arrow. Did so until I reached about 38 years of age. Then I grew out of it.

The words of Henry David Thoreau came to mind as I read this thread.



[quote]There is a period in the history of the individual, as of the race, when the hunters are the "best men," as the Algonquins called them. We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun; he is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected. This was my answer with respect to those youths who were bent on this pursuit, trusting that they would soon outgrow it. No humane being, past the thoughtless age of boyhood, will wantonly murder any creature which holds its life by the same tenure that he does. The hare in its extremity cries like a child. I warn you, mothers, that my sympathies do not always make the usual phil-[i]anthropic[/i] distinctions. Such is oftenest the young man's introduction to the forest, and the most original part of himself. He goes thither at first as a hunter and fisher, until at last, if he has the seeds of a better life in him, he distinguishes his proper objects, as a poet or naturalist it may be, and leaves the gun and fish-pole behind. The mass of men are still and always young in this respect. In some countries a hunting parson is no uncommon sight. Such a one might make a good shepherd's dog, but is far from being the Good Shepherd. I have been surprised to consider that the only obvious employment, except wood-chopping, ice-cutting, or the like business, which ever to my knowledge detained at Walden Pond for a whole half-day any of my fellow-citizens, whether fathers or children of the town, with just one exception, was fishing. Commonly they did not think that they were lucky, or well paid for their time, unless they got a long string of fish, though they had the opportunity of seeing the pond all the while. They might go there a thousand times before the sediment of fishing would sink to the bottom and leave their purpose pure; but no doubt such a clarifying process would be going on all the while. The Governor and his Council faintly remember the pond, for they went a-fishing there when they were boys; but now they are too old and dignified to go a-fishing, and so they know it no more forever. Yet even they expect to go to heaven at last. If the legislature regards it, it is chiefly to regulate the number of hooks to be used there; but they know nothing about the hook of hooks with which to angle for the pond itself, impaling the legislature for a bait. Thus, even in civilized communities, the embryo man passes through the hunter stage of development. [/quote]

I no longer hunt, and I have no qualms with those who do. I think it has its place.

However, I think those who grow spiritually, eventually grow beyond it.

Now, I enjoy seeing the wildlife alive and well.


Jim

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='04 November 2009 - 05:22 PM' timestamp='1257369772' post='1996212']
I no longer hunt, and I have no qualms with those who do. I think it has its place.

However, I think those who grow spiritually, eventually grow beyond it.

Now, I enjoy seeing the wildlife alive and well.
Jim
[/quote]
I don't think spiritual growth has anything to do with hunting to put food on the table or to regulate herd size of deer.
I don't see bear hunting as food on the table, since there are far easier things to kill to eat. Until the coyote and wolf population increase enough to control the herds, hunting will be necessary.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='04 November 2009 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1257370297' post='1996218']
I don't think spiritual growth has anything to do with hunting to put food on the table or to regulate herd size of deer.
I don't see bear hunting as food on the table, since there are far easier things to kill to eat. Until the coyote and wolf population increase enough to control the herds, hunting will be necessary.
[/quote]


Unless you live in a primative culture, there is no need to hunt to put food on your table.

Besides, in the USA, its far more expensive to hunt for food than it is to buy it. Been there done that.

Spiritual growth has a lot to do with it.

For as you grow closer to God in love, you see God in all living creatures, and hense, the idea of killing some thing for pleasure, dies.

Most people don't reach the level of love where killing becomes repulsive, this includes the killing of humans and animals.

Jim

Edited November 4, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

Sometimes bear hunting is necessary for safety. I don't know if that was the case here, but if a bear starts to get used to humans, it should be killed. Not even relocated, but killed.

[StColette]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='04 November 2009 - 04:51 PM' timestamp='1257371488' post='1996230']
Unless you live in a primative culture, there is no need to hunt to put food on your table.

Besides, in the USA, its far more expensive to hunt for food than it is to buy it. Been there done that.

Spiritual growth has a lot to do with it.

For as you grow closer to God in love, you see God in all living creatures, and hense, the idea of killing some thing for pleasure, dies.

Most people don't reach the level of love where killing becomes repulsive, this includes the killing of humans and animals.

Jim
[/quote]

I would say at first it can be more expensive. But if you already have a gun (which most folks in Louisiana do lol) and you have your hunting license (which isn't that expensive) it can actually help cut your meat costs. At least this has been the case in my family. We have several meat processors in the area that won't rip people off to process their deer meat either. I know some families hunt and store the meat to use throughout the year in order to cut costs. Families down here also by beef by the sides and store it to cut costs. You'd be surprised by how much you can save by buying a side of beef for the year (if you have a larger family) then by going and buying your beef throughout the year at the grocery store.

[StColette]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 November 2009 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1257373696' post='1996245']
Sometimes bear hunting is necessary for safety. I don't know if that was the case here, but if a bear starts to get used to humans, it should be killed. Not even relocated, but killed.
[/quote]

Or sent to a zoo.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='04 November 2009 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1257371488' post='1996230']
Unless you live in a primative culture, there is no need to hunt to put food on your table.

Besides, in the USA, its far more expensive to hunt for food than it is to buy it. Been there done that.

Spiritual growth has a lot to do with it.

For as you grow closer to God in love, you see God in all living creatures, and hense, the idea of killing some thing for pleasure, dies.

Most people don't reach the level of love where killing becomes repulsive, this includes the killing of humans and animals.

Jim
[/quote]


Really? Have you checked the price of meat lately? No it is not more expensive to hunt than buy meat.
People I know get their quota of deer, stock their deep freeze, pass the rest on to their non-hunting relatives and the local food banks.
Spiritual growth has little to do with hunting for food to feed your kids.

I wasn't discussing killing for pleasure in my response.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='StColette' date='04 November 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1257373739' post='1996247']
I would say at first it can be more expensive. But if you already have a gun (which most folks in Louisiana do lol) and you have your hunting license (which isn't that expensive) it can actually help cut your meat costs. At least this has been the case in my family. We have several meat processors in the area that won't rip people off to process their deer meat either. I know some families hunt and store the meat to use throughout the year in order to cut costs. Families down here also by beef by the sides and store it to cut costs. You'd be surprised by how much you can save by buying a side of beef for the year (if you have a larger family) then by going and buying your beef throughout the year at the grocery store.
[/quote]


Here in Massachusetts, a fire-arm ID cost $100. A hunting license is $30. Also, you must also take a hunter safety course before you can get a license. Those cost about $80. Conservatively speaking, that's
$210 just for the legal right to hunt. Then, there's the time off from work, and if you manage to get a deer,
having it butchered, unless of course you could do it yourself.

Myself, I use to hunt pheasants. I trained Springer Spaniels for hunting, which was a greater pleasure than hunting. However, add the cost of a dog onto this, and it gets even more expensive.

There is no way, that this is a cost saving venture for food, especially were the success rate for deer hunters isn't all that high.

Most hunting done in the USA, is for sport, not for necessity.

In Texas, you can go to a hunting preserve and for $1200 or more, they'll put you in a tree stand, where the deer have been fed for a month before your arrival. Its almost certain, that the deer will come into your stand. Whether you get one or not will depend on whether you can be quiet enough to get your shot off and whether you're a good enough shot. Then, the guide will dress the deer and haul it out on the ATV they took you in on. They'll ship you the meat if you want it, and have the head mounted, of course all for a cost. The deer at these preserves are fed and bred for hunting. Its not a matter of survival, but hunting for sport.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a ban on hunting, even on game preserves as above. I'm just saying, that people who grow spiritually, will grow out of this sort of hunting.

Jim

Edited November 5, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='04 November 2009 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1257376004' post='1996271']
Really? Have you checked the price of meat lately? No it is not more expensive to hunt than buy meat.
People I know get their quota of deer, stock their deep freeze, pass the rest on to their non-hunting relatives and the local food banks.
Spiritual growth has little to do with hunting for food to feed your kids.

I wasn't discussing killing for pleasure in my response.
[/quote]


There are very few people who have to hunt to feed their families.

When you add up all the cost for hunting licenses, time off from work etc, the cost savings is nil.

Sorry, I don't buy you're argument and I was an hunter.

The majority of hunters hunt for pleasure, not to put food on the table because they have no other choice.

Jim

[StColette]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='05 November 2009 - 08:59 AM' timestamp='1257429545' post='1996493']
Here in Massachusetts, a fire-arm ID cost $100. A hunting license is $30. Also, you must also take a hunter safety course before you can get a license. Those cost about $80. Conservatively speaking, that's
$210 just for the legal right to hunt. Then, there's the time off from work, and if you manage to get a deer,
having it butchered, unless of course you could do it yourself.

Myself, I use to hunt pheasants. I trained Springer Spaniels for hunting, which was a greater pleasure than hunting. However, add the cost of a dog onto this, and it gets even more expensive.

There is no way, that this is a cost saving venture for food, especially were the success rate for deer hunters isn't all that high.

Most hunting done in the USA, is for sport, not for necessity.

In Texas, you can go to a hunting preserve and for $1200 or more, they'll put you in a tree stand, where the deer have been fed for a month before your arrival. Its almost certain, that the deer will come into your stand. Whether you get one or not will depend on whether you can be quiet enough to get your shot off and whether you're a good enough shot. Then, the guide will dress the deer and haul it out on the ATV they took you in on. They'll ship you the meat if you want it, and have the head mounted, of course all for a cost. The deer at these preserves are fed and bred for hunting. Its not a matter of survival, but hunting for sport.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating a ban on hunting, even on game preserves as above. I'm just saying, that people who grow spiritually, will grow out of this sort of hunting.

Jim
[/quote]


These are from your experience, not with mine. My family doesn't hunt on preserves. We have our own land that has deer on it so no need for that huge price tag. I don't really know of any friends or family members that actually take time off work to go hunting. Most hunt on their days off from work or on holidays. I know a Sportsman's Paradise License here in Louisiana is 100.00 (est) and covers everything from fowl, deer, to deep sea fishing (pretty much everything is covered with this license) and I believe a basic season hunting license is around $20 for the season. You could also get a life time hunting license for around 300.00, which for over a lifetime that's really not that bad lol That is the cost for someone 14 (or maybe 15 I forget lol) or older. Say you hunt for 50 years. Now divide 300/50 and it comes to about $6.00 a year. Also, in Louisiana the Hunter Education course which is required before you get a hunting license is actually free so that's one less cost. As for butchering, as I already mentioned in my post, the butchers we have in this area (at least some of them) don't charge you an arm and a leg to process the deer. When my grandfather was alive he would just do it himself since he was a butcher lol.

All in all, I say it comes down to what state you live in and the fees/requirements for that particular state. Most of my family and friends who hunt have lifetime licenses, so really their costs are bullets (or arrows in my brother's case) and processing.

Just looked up what the butcher used here a lot charges. Regular Deer processing (without specialty cuts) is 50.00 and if you need them to skin it then it's an extra $12.00. They'll also save the hide and tan it for you for free if you ask.

(the joys of having grown up in the country with lots of male cousins lol)

[JimR-OCDS]

StColette,
how long is your deer season?

Here, gun season for deer is only 2 weeks.

So, when you figure that most hunters average one deer every five years, the cost is much higher than going out to buy meat, which they would've had to do anyway, because there more likely to not get a deer.
So, just add the cost of hunting, on top of the cost for the food they would've had to buy anyway.

I still believe that most Americans, do not have to hunt to feed their families, and it generally cost more to do so.

Jim

[StColette]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='05 November 2009 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1257438146' post='1996535']
StColette,
how long is your deer season?

Here, gun season for deer is only 2 weeks.

So, when you figure that most hunters average one deer every five years, the cost is much higher than going out to buy meat, which they would've had to do anyway, because there more likely to not get a deer.
So, just add the cost of hunting, on top of the cost for the food they would've had to buy anyway.

I still believe that most Americans, do not have to hunt to feed their families, and it generally cost more to do so.

Jim
[/quote]

I believe it depends on the area of the state you're in, some areas allow hunting for longer periods of time. My brother bow hunts and I know that usually starts at the first of Oct. and runs until the end of January.

Just asked one of the guys in the office about gun season and he said it's around 40 days long for our parish but some parishes only have gun season for a few weeks.

My brother usually has really good luck with bow hunting, probably because the season is longer. It has gotten one deer a year for at least the past 5 or 6 years that I'm aware of.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='05 November 2009 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1257438146' post='1996535']
StColette,
how long is your deer season?

Here, gun season for deer is only 2 weeks.

So, when you figure that most hunters average one deer every five years, the cost is much higher than going out to buy meat, which they would've had to do anyway, because there more likely to not get a deer.
So, just add the cost of hunting, on top of the cost for the food they would've had to buy anyway.

I still believe that most Americans, do not have to hunt to feed their families, and it generally cost more to do so.

Jim
[/quote]
I can tell you that some states where deer populations are booming are extending their hunting seasons. I am pretty sure I recently heard this is true in Wisconsin (my husband was actually considering hunting). In general, though, other states have far less rigid hunting rules than Massachusetts, because of larger animal populations and smaller people populations. And, of course, different politicians.

Personally I don't know any hunters who are purely sport hunters, and I know several people who hunt. They all either process and keep the meat from animals they kill or they give it to food banks. Hunters, in my experience, are typically very responsible, not only in terms of safety but also in terms of promoting environmental stewardship and in respecting the animals they kill by not letting their bodies go to waste.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='05 November 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1257429677' post='1996495']
There are very few people who have to hunt to feed their families.

When you add up all the cost for hunting licenses, time off from work etc, the cost savings is nil.

Sorry, I don't buy you're argument and I was an hunter.

The majority of hunters hunt for pleasure, not to put food on the table because they have no other choice.

Jim
[/quote]
Again you are entitled to your personal opinion about your state, but don't generalize to the rest of us.
In Pennsylvania we do hunt to feed our families, licenses are $20 or under, and the first day of hunting season the schools mostly close, because so many teachers, subs, and kids are in the woods. Every year over[b] 200,000[/b] meals of vension are made available to Pa food banks, from donated meat from hunters. People stock up their deep freezes for winter, and supply most of their relations with free meat.

[StColette]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='05 November 2009 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1257440227' post='1996558']
Every year over[b] 200,000[/b] meals of vension are made available to Pa food banks, from donated meat from hunters.
[/quote]

That's awesome Cmom!

I wonder if Louisiana has something like that. My grandfather was in the cattle business and would donate sides of beef to Providence House which is a foundation dedicated to helping homeless families. They help move them into a home, provide food, and help the parents find jobs.

Gonna research and see if our hunters here donate like the ones in PA.