Bishop Criticizes 'slavishly Literal' English Translation Of M

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 01:29 AM' timestamp='1256966998' post='1994297']
Aquinas says that we do not pray to tell God what we need, or even what we think, since the Spirit reads what's in our hearts.
[/quote]
Bingo. This is exactly my experience in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass...I may not know all the words and all the meanings, but it is as if all my extra efforts at "sounding smart" to God in my prayers is removed, and the Holy Spirit Himself is giving me the words to pray...I have experienced very profound intimacy with God while at the Latin Mass...more so than I have ever experienced in the Novus Ordo...


...I guess it has to do with the fact that in the EF, most people are absorbed and in awe of what is taking place at the Altar...and the focus is totally on the Almighty God.

Hopefully, with the use of the literal translation of the Latin, the Novus Ordo will finally be given the correction it needs to make our worship of God more precise, more fundamental to our beliefs, more in line to what we hold dear, to the meaning of what makes us Catholic children of God...
and finally be rid of the "mumbo jumbo" of the ICEL of the 70's

words are extremely important...after all Jesus Himself is called The Word...The Word made flesh...

Edited October 31, 2009 by dominicansoul

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 October 2009 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1256950556' post='1994159']
From the article: "But while 'the Latin text is the official, authoritative text,' Bishop Trautman said, 'the Latin text is not inspired. It is a human text, reflecting a certain mindset, theology and world view.'"

This is a very modern way of looking at the Church's liturgical prayer. In the Byzantine Church the liturgy is held to be inspired, for it is the inspired prayer of the Body of Christ, and moreover, the Church Fathers are constantly described as "God-inspired" by the prayers of the Byzantine tradition. I think Bishop Trautman has a very modern view of these issues and that is part of the problem. I do not think that he has a living sense of inspired Tradition. It is quite scary actually.
[/quote]
I think those orthodox theologians among the Roman Rite would consider liturgy a part of Sacred Tradition and therefore inspired.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 01:36 AM' timestamp='1256967404' post='1994306']
[quote name='Raphael' date='30 October 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1256940579' post='1994092']
*motions a "blah blah blah" hand*

"Never in the history of the Church has any pope, council, or saint given up on teaching the faith because it required learning or made intellectual demands on the faithful." Right, but the greatest preachers in the Church's glorious history are those who went to the masses and presented the complicated theology in terms that the average believer (note the distiction between a believer and a theologian) could understand, to wit: Jerome's Vulgate translation of the Bible, Dominic, Francis, John Francis Regis, and John Vianney, to name a few.

"Christ spoke in parables unintelligible to the disciples and even to the Apostles...and then explained them." And the explanations were in terms that fishermen could understand.
[/quote]
[/quote]
Your last response makes my point exactly. Christ didn't just leave out the parables and only explain things in ways a fisherman could understand. He used the parables, knowing they would not be understood right away and then explained them. He set the bar high and then gave the disciples the lift they needed to go over it. That is the divine pedagogy. God has high expectations and through grace helps us to reach them. Anything else is a version of Protestant soteriology and pedagogy. The Mass should use the beautiful and inspired text of Tradition, but the priest should take the opportunity during the transition and periodically afterward to explain the changes in the English translation. This is why the bishops always say that catechesis must go along with any changes in the vernacular translation of the liturgy.

Cmom's signature says in a nutshell what I'm saying about the divine pedagogy: "You can come as you are and leave behind what you can,
but you may not stay as you were or do as you will." We go to Mass so that, among other things, we may be transformed. If Mass does not edify us and challenge us to move to a higher level, intellectually, spiritually, morally, then it is falling short.

[AccountDeleted]

I just like big words especially the word "ineffable".

It reminds me of the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore movie, Bedazzled, where Peter Cook (the devil) has Dudley pretending to be the devil when he was in heaven worshipping God, and Dudley kept calling God, "Your Ineffableness"!

And yet there doesn't seem to be an antonym for ineffable! There is no "effable"! God is so unique!

[philothea]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 01:53 AM' timestamp='1256968399' post='1994315']
I know people can look words up - I encourage them to do it every day - in fact, I require it most days of the week. And given the repetition people would get from hearing the proposed trnaslations in weekly liturgies, it would eventually make sense to them. But what's the point? What's wrong with what we have now? Are the current translations confusing? Theologically incorrect? Or is this just the church veresion of politically correct speech?
[/quote]
The current translation gets pretty close to theologically incorrect, and it's absolutely inaccurate in places.

This is a bigger issue if you think in terms of the Church as being worldwide, and everyone experiencing the same mass. I ought to be able to go to a mass in any language, and map the mass I know onto the mostly-unfamiliar language, sentence-to-sentence (or at the very least, paragraph-to-paragraph).

There are phrases both missing and added in the current [i]American[/i] translation. And it's not like that anywhere else in the world. Even in other English-speaking countries! Americans deserve the same mass everyone else gets, don't we?

[JimR-OCDS]

I agree with the Bishop and he is right on. The new translation uses language that makes no sense or is more complicated than
it should be.

Sure, Catholics can be taught the deeper meaning of the words. However, the majority of Catholics barely understand
the Liturgy of the Mass as it is. Lets just confuse them even more.

Some of what makes no sense;

[i]Priest[/i]: The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And also with you.NEW
[i]Priest:[/i] The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And with your spirit.

What does with your spirit mean to the average person ?



Original
Priest: The Lord be with you.
People:[b] And also with you.[/b]
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks
to the Lord our God.
People:[b] It is right to give him
thanks and praise.[/b]

New
Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: [b]And with your spirit.[/b]
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks
to the Lord our God.
People: [b]It is right and just

[/b]"It is right and just" was a compromise given to those who wanted inclusive language, by removing, "Him," from the text.
I've attended Mass over the years at a particular monastery, where many woman attend, and they replace "Him" with "God,"
whenever possible. In this case they'd say, "It is right to give God thanks and Praise." This woud've made more sense than,
"it is right and just."


Oh and those who think this Bishop is alone in his opinion, keep in mind, the new text was not approved unanimously. There were many who voted against the change. Also, the text have not been accepted yet, by the USCCB.

Jim

[philothea]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='31 October 2009 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1257000529' post='1994385']
I agree with the Bishop and he is right on. The new translation uses language that makes no sense or is more complicated than
it should be.

Sure, Catholics can be taught the deeper meaning of the words. However, the majority of Catholics barely understand
the Liturgy of the Mass as it is. Lets just confuse them even more.

Some of what makes no sense;

[i]Priest[/i]: The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And also with you.NEW
[i]Priest:[/i] The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And with your spirit.

What does with your spirit mean to the average person ?



Original
Priest: The Lord be with you.
People:[b] And also with you.[/b]
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks
to the Lord our God.
People:[b] It is right to give him
thanks and praise.[/b]

New
Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: [b]And with your spirit.[/b]
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks
to the Lord our God.
People: [b]It is right and just

[/b]"It is right and just" was a compromise given to those who wanted inclusive language, by removing, "Him," from the text.
I've attended Mass over the years at a particular monastery, where many woman attend, and they replace "Him" with "God,"
whenever possible. In this case they'd say, "It is right to give God thanks and Praise." This woud've made more sense than,
"it is right and just."
[/quote]
I don't know if you are being misleading or if you honestly don't know. The new translations are more accurate translations of the Latin, which is the official universal language of all masses. You don't even need to know Latin to see the difference.

[i]Et cum spiritu tuo.[/i] Does NOT mean "And also with you." It literally means, "And with spirit yours." No way to translate that accurately into English except as "And with your spirit."

As for [i]Dignum et iustum est.[/i] How could you possibly get "It is right to give him thanks and praise"? There aren't even enough words there. Literally, it's more like: "right and just is." So again, the new translation is correct.

If there's a problem with the mass text itself, it should be fixed in the Latin, and for everyone, not just fiddled with arbitrarily for Americans.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='philothea' date='31 October 2009 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1257001514' post='1994389']
I don't know if you are being misleading or if you honestly don't know. The new translations are more accurate translations of the Latin, which is the official universal language of all masses. You don't even need to know Latin to see the difference.

[i]Et cum spiritu tuo.[/i] Does NOT mean "And also with you." It literally means, "And with spirit yours." No way to translate that accurately into English except as "And with your spirit."

As for [i]Dignum et iustum est.[/i] How could you possibly get "It is right to give him thanks and praise"? There aren't even enough words there. Literally, it's more like: "right and just is." So again, the new translation is correct.

If there's a problem with the mass text itself, it should be fixed in the Latin, and for everyone, not just fiddled with arbitrarily for Americans.
[/quote]

There's nothing misleading about anything I said.

Literal translation from the Latin text, ends up with phrases and terms not common in today's language.

And with your spirit, is never used in todays English language, and the Latin use of it, was in accord when Latin was the common language. It was common use of the language for people back then, but not today.

Jim

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='31 October 2009 - 10:48 AM' timestamp='1257000529' post='1994385']
"It is right and just" was a compromise given to those who wanted inclusive language, by removing, "Him," from the text.
I've attended Mass over the years at a particular monastery, where many woman attend, and they replace "Him" with "God,"
whenever possible. In this case they'd say, "It is right to give God thanks and Praise." This woud've made more sense than,
"it is right and just."
[/quote]

I don't know where you got that impression, but it wasn't to remove "Him" from the translation. The Latin is "dignum et justum est" ("it is right and just"). This is a correct translation and a good use of English grammar. "Thanks and praise" is found nowhere in "dignum et justum est."

As for the current translation, it's theologically inaccurate and irreverent. The faithful will benefit from higher and more dignified language in the liturgy.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Raphael' date='31 October 2009 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1257002485' post='1994393']
I don't know where you got that impression, but it wasn't to remove "Him" from the translation. The Latin is "dignum et justum est" ("it is right and just"). This is a correct translation and a good use of English grammar. "Thanks and praise" is found nowhere in "dignum et justum est."

As for the current translation, it's theologically inaccurate and irreverent. The faithful will benefit from higher and more dignified language in the liturgy.
[/quote]


Show me where the current translation is theologically inaccurate.


Jim

[Starets]

[quote name='philothea' date='31 October 2009 - 10:05 AM' timestamp='1257001514' post='1994389']

[i]Et cum spiritu tuo.[/i] Does NOT mean "And also with you." It literally means, "And with spirit yours." No way to translate that accurately into English except as "And with your spirit."

As for [i]Dignum et iustum est.[/i] How could you possibly get "It is right to give him thanks and praise"? There aren't even enough words there. Literally, it's more like: "right and just is." So again, the new translation is correct.

If there's a problem with the mass text itself, it should be fixed in the Latin, and for everyone, not just fiddled with arbitrarily for Americans.
[/quote]

Agreed on point one.
As for point two, back when I was an anglican chioirboy, there was a similar phrase. We would say "it is meet (Just) and right so to do"

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='31 October 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1256992288' post='1994357']
Bingo. This is exactly my experience in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass...I may not know all the words and all the meanings, but it is as if all my extra efforts at "sounding smart" to God in my prayers is removed, and the Holy Spirit Himself is giving me the words to pray...I have experienced very profound intimacy with God while at the Latin Mass...more so than I have ever experienced in the Novus Ordo...


...I guess it has to do with the fact that in the EF, most people are absorbed and in awe of what is taking place at the Altar...and the focus is totally on the Almighty God.

Hopefully, with the use of the literal translation of the Latin, the Novus Ordo will finally be given the correction it needs to make our worship of God more precise, more fundamental to our beliefs, more in line to what we hold dear, to the meaning of what makes us Catholic children of God...
and finally be rid of the "mumbo jumbo" of the ICEL of the 70's

words are extremely important...after all Jesus Himself is called The Word...The Word made flesh...
[/quote]
Even better if more NO Masses start using more Latin. You have no idea how excited I get when we actually say "Agnus Dei". (I've never been to the EF, so I can't give an opinion on that, but have been to a very reverent NO Mass with a bit in Latin.

[quote name='philothea' date='31 October 2009 - 02:14 PM' timestamp='1256998461' post='1994380']
There are phrases both missing and added in the current [i]American[/i] translation. And it's not like that anywhere else in the world. Even in other English-speaking countries! Americans deserve the same mass everyone else gets, don't we?
[/quote]
Yep. I was thrown off the first time I attended Mass in England, because in the Creed as it is said in England, we say "became incarnate of the Virgin Mary" instead of the American "and was born of the Virgin Mary". I definitely prefer the former. Now I get thrown off when I visit the US.

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='Staretz' date='31 October 2009 - 12:56 PM' timestamp='1257004576' post='1994398']
Agreed on point one.
As for point two, back when I was an anglican chioirboy, there was a similar phrase. We would say "it is meet (Just) and right so to do"
[/quote]


I just took a look at some of the various sights which have the TLM along with the english translation and I have found "meet" used in the translation, just as you posted.

Jim

[Apotheoun]

I do not, in examining the "study text," find the new translation problematic. In fact, it matches up well with the type of English used in the liturgy of the Byzantine Churches.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='31 October 2009 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1257000529' post='1994385']
I agree with the Bishop and he is right on. The new translation uses language that makes no sense or is more complicated than
it should be.

Sure, Catholics can be taught the deeper meaning of the words. However, the majority of Catholics barely understand
the Liturgy of the Mass as it is. Lets just confuse them even more.

Some of what makes no sense;

[i]Priest[/i]: The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And also with you.

NEW
[i]Priest:[/i] The Lord be with you.
[i]People:[/i] And with your spirit.

What does with your spirit mean to the average person ?
[/quote]
A better question is: What does this verse and response mean according to the Tradition of the Holy Fathers?

Now, if the lay faithful of today are ignorant of the patristical meaning of this text, it follows that proper catechesis is needed, because this ancient semitism has been retained universally in all the different liturgies of the Church for a theological reason. So to have one liturgical rite (in one language) dump this traditional expression is a sign of liturgical disintegration within the group of Churches using that translation.

The thread below involves a discussion of some of the changes in the new translation of the Roman Missal, those interested should take a look:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=98659"][u]Mass Changes[/u][/url]