Bishop Criticizes 'slavishly Literal' English Translation Of M

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='30 October 2009 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1256947350' post='1994139']
It wasn't the vocabulary he called unproclaimable. He was complaining about 80 word sentences and sentence structure that was grammatically incorrect in English but was incorporated as a hold over from the Latin. . . .
[/quote]
Bishop Trautman is clearly unfamiliar with the Byzantine liturgical tradition, which loves long sentences:

Here a few examples:

[quote]O Lord, our God, You Who dwell on high and behold the humble, Who for the salvation of mankind have sent down Your only-begotten Son and God, our Lord Jesus Christ, look down upon Your servants, the catechumens, who have bowed their head to You, and deem them worthy in due time of the waters of regeneration, of the remission of sins, and of the robe of incorruption. (68 words)[/quote]

[quote]Accept our prayer, O God, and make us worthy to offer to You prayers and supplications, and unbloody sacrifices for all Your people, and enable us, whom You have placed in this Your ministry through the power of Your Holy Spirit, to call upon You at all times and in all places, without condemnation and blame, with a true testimony of our conscience, that, hearing us, You may be merciful to us in the greatness of Your goodness. (78 words)[/quote]

[quote]O Lord God Almighty, Who alone are Holy and receive the sacrifice of praise from those who call upon You with their whole heart, accept the prayer also of us sinners; bring us to Your holy altar, enable us to offer to You gifts and spiritual sacrifices for our sins, and for the people's transgressions; and deem us also worthy to find favor in Your sight, that our sacrifice may be pleasing to You, and that the good Spirit of Your grace may rest in us and upon these gifts here present, and upon all Your people. (97 words)[/quote]

Prayers like these are not simply "proclaimed" (i.e., if by the word "proclaimed" he means read out loud), but are instead sung during the liturgy.

[Apotheoun]

Here is the preface to the anaphora in the Divine Liturgy:

[quote]It is proper and just to sing hymns to You, to bless You, to praise You, to thank You, to worship You in every place of Your kingdom; for You are God ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing, yet ever the same, You, and Your only-begotten Son, and Your Holy Spirit; You brought us forth from nonexistence into being, and raised us up again when we had fallen, and left nothing undone, until You brought us to heaven and bestowed upon us Your future kingdom. (85 words)

For all this we give thanks to You, and to Your only-begotten Son, and to Your Holy Spirit, for all that we know and that we do not know, the manifest and the hidden benefits bestowed upon us. (38 words)

We thank You also for this liturgy, which You have willed to accept from our hands, even though there stand before You thousands of archangels, tens of thousands of angels, Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed, soaring aloft on their wings. (40 words)

Singing, shouting, crying out and saying the triumphal hymn. (9 words)

Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts, heaven and earth are full of Your glory; hosanna in the highest. Blessed is He Who comes in the name of the Lord, hosanna in the highest. (35 words)[/quote]

Thank God there is only one offending sentence in the preface.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' date='30 October 2009 - 08:49 PM' timestamp='1256957353' post='1994184']
Ok, thanks, I was slightly confused.

I kinda have similar views on the changing of Ascension Thursday to Sunday.
[/quote]
I thank God that the Byzantine Churches have refused to fiddle with their liturgical calendar.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 October 2009 - 12:06 AM' timestamp='1256958388' post='1994196']
Here is the preface to the anaphora in the Divine Liturgy:



Thank God there is only one offending sentence in the preface.
[/quote]
Ok, now I [i]definitely[/i] want to go to a Divine Liturgy !

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='30 October 2009 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1256959097' post='1994208']
Ok, now I [i]definitely[/i] want to go to a Divine Liturgy !
[/quote]

Do! You won't be disappointed!

[mortify]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 October 2009 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1256939721' post='1994084']
It is time for the vocabulary of God's people to expand.
[/quote]

Amen

[Aloysius]

there's nothing in the new translation that doesn't make sense in English; it might not be prosaic sometimes, but it'll be poetic and thus speak to deeper levels of the human heart than if we ensured it were "grammatically correct". anything "not grammatically correct" is just something you couldn't put into an essay; but it's all certainly something you could put into a poem and touch people even deeper.

bishop, meet poetic license. poetic license, meet liturgical license.

[mortify]

It's time to make normative the rite of our pious forebearers.

[Luigi]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='30 October 2009 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1256939203' post='1994080']
so does he want us to "dumb" down the translation?
[/quote]

No, but the translation doesn't have to be in graduate-school English, either.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1256965558' post='1994279']
No, but the translation doesn't have to be in graduate-school English, either.
[/quote]

Why not?

[picchick]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1256965558' post='1994279']<br />No, but the translation doesn't have to be in graduate-school English, either.<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />

You know, not to sound harsh, but we can always look up the words in a dictionary. It takes some time but you learn something.

[Luigi]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='30 October 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1256939868' post='1994087']
"I agree...why pander to the masses? "
Did you really just say that? Like, maybe so they will come to Church... maybe so they will understand what's going on there... maybe so they can unite their own thoughts, feelings, and religious sentiments to the priest's words as he prays... maybe because the 'catholic' church is for everybody, not just the elite...

"Why not take the opportunity to enrich the learning of the parishioners if they don't have previous experience with the vocabulary?" And when, exactly, would they have their vocabularies enriched? Before, after, or during the 1000 other things they already do? It's fine for monks and Dominicans - people who have committed their lives to study - but the average Catholic (and that is the vast majority of Catholics) are pretty busy earning money enough to support the church and send their children to Catholic schools. Would the vocabulary-building sessions double as fund-raisers, too?

"Also, I think it's pretty [u]presumptive[/u] for His Excellence to make the blanket statement that Catholics are, in so many words, not smart enough for the liturgical changes." Do you mean [u]presumptuous[/u]? Those who support the use of Latinate vocabulary in liturgy really ought to how to use it properly themselves; otherwise they risk making exactly the point with which they disagree. Is His Excellence actually assuming that Catholics are not smart enough for the liturgical change, or is he trying to address those who have not been flexible enough to accept liturgical change?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Luigi' date='31 October 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1256966602' post='1994292']
"I agree...why pander to the masses? "
Did you really just say that? Like, maybe so they will come to Church... maybe so they will understand what's going on there... maybe so they can unite their own thoughts, feelings, and religious sentiments to the priest's words as he prays... maybe because the 'catholic' church is for everybody, not just the elite...

"Why not take the opportunity to enrich the learning of the parishioners if they don't have previous experience with the vocabulary?" And when, exactly, would they have their vocabularies enriched? Before, after, or during the 1000 other things they already do? It's fine for monks and Dominicans - people who have committed their lives to study - but the average Catholic (and that is the vast majority of Catholics) are pretty busy earning money enough to support the church and send their children to Catholic schools. Would the vocabulary-building sessions double as fund-raisers, too?

"Also, I think it's pretty [u]presumptive[/u] for His Excellence to make the blanket statement that Catholics are, in so many words, not smart enough for the liturgical changes." Do you mean [u]presumptuous[/u]? Those who support the use of Latinate vocabulary in liturgy really ought to how to use it properly themselves; otherwise they risk making exactly the point with which they disagree. Is His Excellence actually assuming that Catholics are not smart enough for the liturgical change, or is he trying to address those who have not been flexible enough to accept liturgical change?
[/quote]

Carp. I meant to give this post a negative vote. Instead I have it a positive one.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Luigi]

Because prayer is essentially an exercise in meaning-making. Aquinas says that we do not pray to tell God what we need, or even what we think, since the Spirit reads what's in our hearts. Rather, we pray to remind ourselves of the concepts contained in the prayers - what we believe, God's greatness, His attributes, etc. In which case, it would be nice to understand what we're trying to remind ourselves of rather than being wowed by a lot of mumbo jumbo.

It reminds me of a kind of formal discourse done in Jamaica, called "fancy talk." Speakers compete to sound more impressive than each other - what they say is often not even understood by the listeners, but they sure sound good saying it. It's elegant but meaningless.

[Luigi]

Well contact an administrator ASAP - I wouldn't want people thinking we agree when we don't.