Bishop Criticizes 'slavishly Literal' English Translation Of M

[Resurrexi]

I am so glad that "one in Being" is being replaced with "consubstantial".

I am also incredibly happy that "for all" is being changed to the much more correct "for many".

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 October 2009 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1256944973' post='1994130']
There is nothing inherently "unproclaimable" about the words used in the new Roman Missal translation, and in fact the same types of words have been used, and are still being used, in English translations of the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

God is truly ineffable!
[/quote]



It wasn't the vocabulary he called unproclaimable. He was complaining about 80 word sentences and sentence structure that was grammatically incorrect in English but was incorporated as a hold over from the Latin. I don't have a specific example, because he didn't give one, but IF this were the case, I would see it as a valid concern. If he's just griping...well, we'll all catch on eventually.

I mean, there will be a transition period where everyone will have to use the missals because the responses we have memorized won't work anymore. That's a good thing , but I can see a *lot* of people complaining - "Why'd they have to go and change it?" No one is arguing the switch in translations will be automatic and unnoticed. The question is just how smoothly it will go, and how effective it will be. Time will tell.....

But paragraphs that are all one sentence [i]are[/i] difficult to read aloud, and they are easy to get lost in. I hope that they at least tested out their translation to work out some of those types of glitches at some point.

But more importantly,

[i]Ineffable![/i]

[OraProMe]

What a massive insult to his congregation. Why doesn't he just say "you guys are too dumb to understand this stuff"? I'm an 18 year old kid and I know what all those words mean with the exception of "ignominy". Honestly, who doesn't know what unvanquished or inviolate mean?

I'm sure the adults in his congregation will get used to it. How hard is it to pick up a dictionary?

Edited October 31, 2009 by OraProMe

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='30 October 2009 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1256945218' post='1994132']
I am so glad that "one in Being" is being replaced with "consubstantial".

I am also incredibly happy that "for all" is being changed to the much more correct "for many".
[/quote]

And "with thy spirit".

[Marie-Therese]

I agree, I understood his position on unwieldy sentence structure...this should be an accommodation that was made during the translation process. However, I still think that his base argument, that the vocabulary was too high minded, was an erroneous position. While, yes, we aren't all theologians, I don't see why there can't be a concerted effort to try and educate the faithful on these topics. They are important.

[OraProMe]

Besides it's not like they're big words just for the sake of sounding smart. They're words which easily express Catholic doctrine (consubstantial with the father). The bishop should be ashamed that his faithful don't know what the words mean, not using it as an excuse to further their ignorance.

Edited October 31, 2009 by OraProMe

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='30 October 2009 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1256947350' post='1994139']


It wasn't the vocabulary he called unproclaimable. He was complaining about 80 word sentences and sentence structure that was grammatically incorrect in English but was incorporated as a hold over from the Latin. I don't have a specific example, because he didn't give one, but IF this were the case, I would see it as a valid concern. If he's just griping...well, we'll all catch on eventually.

I mean, there will be a transition period where everyone will have to use the missals because the responses we have memorized won't work anymore. That's a good thing , but I can see a *lot* of people complaining - "Why'd they have to go and change it?" No one is arguing the switch in translations will be automatic and unnoticed. The question is just how smoothly it will go, and how effective it will be. Time will tell.....

But paragraphs that are all one sentence [i]are[/i] difficult to read aloud, and they are easy to get lost in. I hope that they at least tested out their translation to work out some of those types of glitches at some point.

But more importantly,

[i]Ineffable![/i]
[/quote]
On liturgical and scriptural issues I would rather have unwieldy English sentences structures that maintain the inspired information in the way it was presented in the original language than a paraphrase that uses proper English grammar while "supposedly" clearing up confusion.

The problem with the previous English language Roman Missal is that it often was a new composition and not a translation at all. Like the text "welcome into your kingdom our departed brothers and sisters", which is at best a paraphrase, and at worse a ccmpletely new composition.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

An example of what I am talking about can be taken from the Byzantine liturgy, which - when translated correctly - says something rather non-sensical in English right before the anaphora: "A mercy of peace, a sacrifice of praise."

What the heck does that mean? I do not know, nor do Byzantine liturgical scholars, but rather than try and clear up the matter by giving a modern interpretation to the phrase the Byzantine Churches (Orthodox and Catholic alike) simply translate the phrase as is and let each man think what he will.

Clearly, God knows what that prayer means, and that will suffice.

[Apotheoun]

I must admit that as an Eastern Catholic I am greatly concerned by what appears to be a complete lack of the sense of tradition on the part of the good bishop. He makes it sound as if the liturgy, which according to the Byzantine Tradition is an inspired prayer offered to almighty God through the power of the Holy Spirit, is a matter of legal enactment from a despotic central bureaucracy. His bizarre use of a quotation from [i]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/i] about the simplicity of the Roman Church's liturgical texts makes it sound like the various episcopal conferences around the world have now been entrusted with the power to simplify the liturgical texts of the Roman Missal, rather than faithfully convey the existing liturgical tradition. It is the good bishops attitude that has cause the liturgical disarray in the Roman Rite over the past half century. I am pleased that this man is not an Eastern Catholic bishop, because if he were I believe that he would bring about the destruction of Byzantine liturgical tradition.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

From the article: "But while 'the Latin text is the official, authoritative text,' Bishop Trautman said, 'the Latin text is not inspired. It is a human text, reflecting a certain mindset, theology and world view.'"

This is a very modern way of looking at the Church's liturgical prayer. In the Byzantine Church the liturgy is held to be inspired, for it is the inspired prayer of the Body of Christ, and moreover, the Church Fathers are constantly described as "God-inspired" by the prayers of the Byzantine tradition. I think Bishop Trautman has a very modern view of these issues and that is part of the problem. I do not think that he has a living sense of inspired Tradition. It is quite scary actually.

[picchick]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='30 October 2009 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1256939742' post='1994086']
As a shepherd he should believe in our abilities to achieve greatness. People will often fulfill the expectations of their leaders. If leaders have low expectations the people will often live up to that, or under it. If Leaders on the other had believe in our abilities and encourage us to strive and achieve we can do most anything!

Think if JFK had instead told the American people it was impossible to go to the moon, we're just not that bright. We surely would have never succeed. But because he did believe in the abilities of the American people we achieved something wonderful. The same can be said for a great many leaders.
[/quote]
I am a little confused...are you adding on to what I am saying or correcting me? This is what I said in so many words.

[Nihil Obstat]

It's called the Y theory of management. This bishop is stuck on X theory.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='picchick' date='30 October 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1256953820' post='1994171']
I am a little confused...are you adding on to what I am saying or correcting me? This is what I said in so many words.
[/quote]
I took KofC's comment to be a statement of agreement and reiteration.

Edited October 31, 2009 by Apotheoun

[little_miss_late]

To be honest, most of a Catholic Mass seems incomprehensible and remote from the everyday, until someone explains it to you, or until you've gotten used to it.

I work with computers all day. I bet that most of the language I use at work is hard for people to understand at first. I'm sure this is true of every business. If I walked into a restaurant kitchen, or a firehouse, or a wood shop for the first time, I might not understand everything.

I remember going to Passover seders when I was younger and being enthralled by the big words and the poetic language. Lo! This is the bread of affliction! and wrath and indignation and a band of evil angels. TOTALLY COOL. Of course I wanted to know what every single word meant. I took a young Jewish relative to church with us and she was the same way-- who's in that statue? And what are those candles for? and what are [i]those [/i]candles for? and so on.

[picchick]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 October 2009 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1256954549' post='1994174']
I took KofC's comment to be a statement of agreement and reiteration.
[/quote]
Ok, thanks, I was slightly confused.

I kinda have similar views on the changing of Ascension Thursday to Sunday.