Franciscan University Thread

[jksoren]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1815022' date='Mar 23 2009, 05:52 PM']If you are going to study theology, go "all the way" and get your PhD! Then you could be a university professor... let's just say tenure is a super nice thing to have. Do they have the tenure concept in Norway?

Personally I think studying theology only at the bachelor's or even master's degree level is a waste of time, money, resources, etc. Someone with only a bachelor's degree in theology is never going to be more than an armchair theologian. If your primary goal is to learn more about your faith, you can study it as a hobby and become just as well-informed as someone with a B.S. in Theology

However if Norway is really all that much cheaper than the US maybe you should go for it! The main problem in the U.S. is that there is hugely hard to support a family with a theology degree (unless you're already rich). Personally I think in the US there are WAY more people studying theology than are actually called to it. That is my major beef with schools like Franciscan, they do NOT really help their students discern their theology degree, they are happy to take the students' loan money and then down the road the alumni have to pay the price.[/quote]

Behold! Good advice! I second everything that you said here, because it is SO true. I actually am about to finish the MA in theology at Franciscan. Big mistake actually, the worst I've ever made. Still love the Lord though, just now my family and I are poorer and with little to show for all of the effort.

Also not only does Franciscan not help students discern their entering the program, they don't really offer much support once you're here (none), and just about nothing when you are attempting to make it in academia. (This is probably because they know, that even with their masters degree, our students generally CAN'T make it in academia).

[jksoren]

How do you KNOW that God is calling you to formally study theology (getting a BA in it), even if you know that practically speaking it doesn't make sense? I mean, how do you discern God's will in this?

People don't "feed a family" working at Wal-Mart or fast food restaurants. These kinds of service jobs were never been intended to help entire families survive. Historically, jobs like McDonalds were held part time by teenage kids, etc. The uneducated blue-collar worker typically was MUCH better off working in heavy industry (what steel mills in Steubenville used to provide). However, today people are trying to survive by working extremely low paying jobs behind fast food counters or stocking shelves at Wal-Mart...and it is ill advised! Even if the entire household holds such jobs it is often NOT sufficient to make ends meet, etc. Theology professors (teaching at a university) CAN in fact make a decent living. DRE's can too, if you're not married and/or don't have the intent of having a large family.

Franciscan does give students the pep talk about not blaming them when you can't get a job after graduation, but the truth is it's not just because of the degree in theology. Quite frankly, the worst part about having a theology degree from Franciscan is the fact that its a degree from Franciscan and not really so much the fact that its in theology. However, AT ANY SCHOOL, getting a humanities degree that doesn't translate into jobs (if you have no intent of becoming a scholar already) is ill advised. Students at top universities actually know this. That's why, even if their school has the best theology/philosophy department in the country, they almost always double major in some practical field like economics. At UCLA you'd see this all the time: PoliSci/Classics, Biology/Philosophy, etc. In fact, I think that double majoring is pretty good idea regardless of this.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='jksoren' post='1823217' date='Apr 3 2009, 01:44 AM']Actually almost NO university will let you teach with just an MA, not even if it's from a top school. This means that even fewer universities are likely to let you teach if you have a degree from an academically unrecognized school such as Franciscan. We have Franciscan grads teaching in the theology department, right, but that's actually not a good thing! It shows, or it ought to show, that our school has poor placement for such individuals elsewhere (either in PhD programs or other work). Having an MA, and I pretty much have one (just have to pass a few more classes), does NOT make you qualified to teach college. However, you can teach community college, often, with just an MA....but again, even Jefferson Community College in Steubenville (the worst community college that I have ever seen) wouldn't touch me with a 10 foot pole. They did hire my wife though, because she has an MA in English from Duquesne. And they did hire a friend of mine (graduate of the MA program at Franciscan) to teach math because he has a math degree from one of the nations top universities and no one at JCC knows math.[/quote]

Does Franciscan really have that bad of an academic reputation? Nobody thinks it's a really good program academically but I didn't know there was any trouble with getting into PhD programs... are there any orthodox theology programs that ARE academically sound? The ones that come to mind first after Franciscan are kind of heterodox.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' post='1823535' date='Apr 3 2009, 12:01 PM']btw I find it interesting jksoren that your first posts on phatmass are on this thread complaining about Franciscan.[/quote]
Every academic program has its problems; and as the saying goes, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823567' date='Apr 3 2009, 02:23 PM']Every academic program has its problems; and as the saying goes, "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence."[/quote]

Oh, I know that. FUS does have some problems. But when does something become the University's issue and not the individual student's issue. What I mean is when do we say "you should have thought more carefully about pursuing this" instead of just blaming a university, no matter what university.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='StColette' post='1823572' date='Apr 3 2009, 12:27 PM']Oh, I know that. FUS does have some problems. But when does something become the University's issue and not the individual student's issue. What I mean is when do we say "you should have thought more carefully about pursuing this" instead of just blaming a university, no matter what university.[/quote]
Yes.

I went to FUS and I enjoyed the experience, and so I have no regrets about getting my MA there, but the main point in my previous post was simply to state the obvious, that every university has its problems. To be blunt, the majority of Catholic theology programs in the United States are intellectually vapid at best and blatantly heretical at worst, so who wants to waste money in a program where you have to ignore more than half of what you are taught.

FUS has its failings, but if you supplement your class studies by reading beyond what is required, you will have a good experience and get a solid degree. In the final analysis, you get out of the experience what you put into the experience.

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823583' date='Apr 3 2009, 02:52 PM']FUS has its failings, but if you supplement your class studies by reading beyond what is required, you will have a good experience and get a solid degree. In the final analysis, you get out of the experience what you put into the experience.[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823583' date='Apr 3 2009, 02:52 PM']Yes.

I went to FUS and I enjoyed the experience, and so I have no regrets about getting my MA there, but the main point in my previous post was simply to state the obvious, that every university has its problems. To be blunt, the majority of Catholic theology programs in the United States are intellectually vapid at best and blatantly heretical at worst, so who wants to waste money in a program where you have to ignore more than half of what you are taught.

FUS has its failings, but if you supplement your class studies by reading beyond what is required, you will have a good experience and get a solid degree. In the final analysis, you get out of the experience what you put into the experience.[/quote]
Couldn't agree more, except I got my BA there.

I'd really like to know...out of all the students who complain after graduation that they can't find a job, how many went to career services? Out of all the students who complain they didn't receive guidance, how many took it on themselves to discern seriously the academic choices they were making? Out of all the students who complain they don't make enough money on theology to support a family, how many of them seriously thought theologians made a 6-figure salary and how many were in it for the money?

I think there's an awful lot of whining about something that should be pretty darn obvious.

I also have a gut feeling that people who join Phatmass and start complaining right off the bat about anything are either 1) alternate screennames (which, for the purpose of making an argument, is against phorum guidelines), 2) friends of already complaining PMers (which is doubly annoying when they pretend not to know one another), or 3) just looking to complain (which is really just a bad attitude).

So there you have it. I can't take whiny complaints seriously.

[jksoren]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1823300' date='Apr 3 2009, 08:27 AM']Does Franciscan really have that bad of an academic reputation? Nobody thinks it's a really good program academically but I didn't know there was any trouble with getting into PhD programs... are there any orthodox theology programs that ARE academically sound? The ones that come to mind first after Franciscan are kind of heterodox.[/quote]

The school does not have a good reputation, even amongst the conservative Catholic college demographic. The theology program is terrible and completely incompatible with the academic discipline of "theology".

I went to a top 25 university for undergrad and I had a stellar experience there. I learned a ton from outstanding faculty, even if I often didn't agree with them. Coming to Franciscan was an ideological move. I came because I thought that the school was all about serving the Lord. I thought that I was going to learn from these great faithful Catholic thinkers and then use my skills at the doctoral level. In short, I wanted to be like my heroes, like Dr. Hahn. So, yes, while I made a bad choice it wasn't one that I didn't deliberate upon. The truth is, I think that I was lied to. I think that the school masquerades itself as being this place that I described, while in reality knows (the administration and much of the faculty) that you probably won't amount to much if you come here.

Almost no one that comes to Franciscan gets into a PhD program. Many get into Catholic U without funding, one a couple years ago got into Ave Maria, and last year we had a guy get funded at Marquette. But, the truth is, very few Franciscan students even know why they came here in the first place. Of the many that I know, it seems that the majority are all just going to go back home now that they have finished paying for this degree and those of us who want to get into PhD programs have been set up to fail. I have close friends, all very sharp/great students, who are still living here YEARS after they graduated because they were not prepared for the extremely competitive admissions process for PhD programs. Our classes are hokey, there is no Greek/Hebrew requirement (though you can pay thousands to attend the "language school" in the summer...this is FREE at other schools) , there is no GRE requirement (which is incredible!), they only require two philosophy classes, etc. Good theology departments, the kind that can actually land you jobs teaching/researching, have a very specific (and reasonable) minimum standard that Franciscan knowingly fails to meet with its students. The result is that you really almost need a remedial education coming out of here. By the way, good terminal masters programs, like the kind Dr. Hahn's son is going to at Notre Dame, actually remit tuition and pay you a stipend if you're qualified! Even students who don't manage a TA-ship will eventually get some financial support down the road (even for MAs), but at Franciscan they help ZERO students. We are all essentially being robbed for going to a bad school! It's a lose/lose situation.

There are heretics at other schools, but they are not ALL heretics and like someone else said, you basically seek out a good supportive mentor when you do doctoral work. However Franciscan itself isn't all that orthodox either! I have had professors assert that there is no difference between protestants and Catholics, that we can find truth in Islam, that the Bible is not inerrant, that counsels are more political than spiritual, etc. I've had plenty of heretical teachers at Franciscan, but students here tend to remain very quiet about it (even when it bothers them). There's one professor teaching here, a recent divorcee, who teaches that Jesus didn't actually ascend into heaven. I had a friar teach a class on undergraduate Christology who denied that the Gospels actually tell us anything directly about Christ (not Fr. Dan, he's very good!). I once heard one of the friars preach in the chapel that Jesus has given us a "father in heaven who is loving" so as to replace "the abusive and cruel father of the old testament". I could go on! Franciscan itself is NOT all that orthodox, and there are far worse problems that I don't even want to go into. But even worse then this is the fact that some of these professors (the happy exceptions being aside) have been some of the worst teachers that I have ever had at the college level. I have had teachers who literally taught nothing for an entire semester, we'd come in and he'd read us jokes that he printed off the internet. I had teachers who got out of lecturing or facilitating real graduate level discussion by just having all (like 30) students do in class "presentations" (quite a few actually pull this one), I've known professors (who teach adjunct classes for under grad. preqs) who were totally ignorant and unqualified to teach the subject they were lecturing on.

I could really keep harping on SO much more. I am sorry, if you defend this school then I think that you must be willfully blind or that you must have never had a good university experience anywhere else. The school is corrupt, backwards, and does not actually live up to what it purports to be. But as long as we are willing to pretend, perhaps it will live on into the future?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='jksoren' post='1823217' date='Apr 3 2009, 12:44 AM']Actually almost NO university will let you teach with just an MA, not even if it's from a top school. This means that even fewer universities are likely to let you teach if you have a degree from an academically unrecognized school such as Franciscan.[/quote]

Aside from FUS being on the top tier of midwestern universities in News & World Report (which is considered one of the most standardized college ranking systems around), FUS has an excellent reputation in many places. Just because some universities might not hire you (perhaps because of FUS's reputation as orthodox) doesn't mean that universities never hire those with MA's. I think that since Christoph Cardinal Schonborn, editor of the CCC and one of the most educated prelates of the Church, is a supportive advocate of FUS, that would imply that, whether or not secularly recognized as great (which I have already proven FUS is), FUS is to be seen as academically sound.

[quote]We have Franciscan grads teaching in the theology department, right, but that's actually not a good thing! It shows, or it ought to show, that our school has poor placement for such individuals elsewhere (either in PhD programs or other work). Having an MA, and I pretty much have one (just have to pass a few more classes), does NOT make you qualified to teach college. However, you can teach community college, often, with just an MA....but again, even Jefferson Community College in Steubenville (the worst community college that I have ever seen) wouldn't touch me with a 10 foot pole. They did hire my wife though, because she has an MA in English from Duquesne. And they did hire a friend of mine (graduate of the MA program at Franciscan) to teach math because he has a math degree from one of the nations top universities and no one at JCC knows math.[/quote]

Are you a theology student? If so, that's probably why JCC (a secular institution) didn't hire you.

[quote]It is true that theology does help people minister at their local parish, but I don't think one ought to pay $40, 000 for the qualifications.[/quote]

I only took out $18,000 in loans. It doesn't make for an unmanageable monthly repayment. Of course, if people are looking at having to pay that much without assistance, then they should reconsider, but that doesn't mean you blame the university. If I go out and sign a lease on a Mercedes, I don't blame the dealership when I go bankrupt. I'd have to own up for my own lack of responsibility.

[quote]It's really much better to just read on your own. I also have a hard time getting behind this notion of a "professional catechist"...I just don't know why the Church ought to pay anyone for such a service.[/quote]

Those who serve as catechists do so as full-timers. I'd catechize for free if I could (honestly, I'd like it better because I could work with impunity), but it costs money to raise a family.

[quote]The truth is, if you're faithful, you are probably going to seek (on your own) all of the necessary theological truth needed to catechize you and your children. It's really to proselytize to weaker parishioners who don't care all that much that we bother having DRE's etc.[/quote]

Professional catechists serve as resources even for the educated. I have parishioners who read theology books and are well catechized but come to me with questions. Obviously, there is a need.

[quote]I've never learned anything from a DRE or CCD teacher, personally, and my children will never attend the classes at our parish. Likely, we will simply teach them ourselves.[/quote]

I think you should teach them yourselves, but I also think they should be in PSR/CCD at the parish, unless you intend one of your teachings to be that we have an exclusivist policy in the Church and that those who are "better catechized" should not mingle with those who are "weaker" (your word, not mine).

[quote]The people getting paid to teach kids who come from homes that don't go to mass or pray are wasting their time (same goes for RCIA classes for people who just want to get baptized/confirmed so that they can get married in the Church) because their pupils do not care.[/quote]

Have you actually seen the real world? My experience as a youth minister has taught me that while it is extremely difficult to reach out to such people, it is possible by the grace of God. In fact, the mission of the Church is to evangelize. Let's not treat the Church like a country club. I'm not saying we need to be "inclusive" folks who allow debauchery and the like, but when we tell ourselves that it's not worth putting in the effort to instruct the ignorant (which is a work of mercy), then we have failed as the Church.

[quote]They might later, like I did, though. When they DO care then, ironically enough, they probably won't need the services! They'll read, go to conferences, talk to faithful Catholics that they know etc, and thus learn everything a DRE or catechist was supposed to be trained to teach them. In short, CCD/catechists are just a waste of Church resources...its really a job for religious and clergy and the laity involved are honestly, inadvertently mooching off the Church.[/quote]

The Council of Trent says that the laity are to be involved in the catechetical work of the Church beyond the context of their families, working in the parishes as catechists. The Second Vatican Council agreed. I'm not sure where you get off saying that catechetics is the work of religious and clergy alone, but it's purely ignorant, and I would expect better from an MA student in theology. You don't even seem to have a grasp of catechetical history and development!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]By the way, good terminal masters programs, like the kind Dr. Hahn's son is going to at Notre Dame, actually remit tuition and pay you a stipend if you're qualified! Even students who don't manage a TA-ship will eventually get some financial support down the road (even for MAs), but at Franciscan they help ZERO students.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, which Hahn son is that?

[Apotheoun]

Goodness, I sense some anger here.

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823643' date='Apr 3 2009, 03:54 PM']Goodness, I sense some anger here.[/quote]

just a little lol

I find a bit of it offensive, especially since I went there and experienced quite the opposite, so I must be blind .
:shrug:

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1823643' date='Apr 3 2009, 03:54 PM']Goodness, I sense some anger here.[/quote]

[jksoren]

1) Franciscan is NOT a nationally ranked school. The US News and World Report is indeed a good thing to consider, but being "ranked in your region" doesn't mean much. Especially when you consider how BAD the region Franciscan "ranks" in actually is. The truth is, telling people on their website that the school is "ranked high" is a lie. It is not. It is not a first tier school. I have no idea where it actually falls in the rankings but even in its own "region" it is nowhere near the top. The school also lied recently on their website, saying that Franciscan was a "top ten school!" Top ten academically? Not quite...it was because some website ranked them among the "most conservative colleges", which again means nothing. The website's manner of portraying these "facts" however is HIGHLY misleading. You after all believed that it was a high ranked school (from reading the website no doubt)...but it isn't.

2) Schonborn is a great cardinal and many great clergy men have gotten behind the school...but honestly how much do they really know about Franciscan? How much time have they really spent here? I once truly believed in Franciscan too! I would have defended it even! But that was, of course, before I was actually a student here.

3) You misunderstand me about JCC. I know that they wouldn't hire me. Really all I want to say is that colleges/universities (JCC aside) do not hire MA students/graduates. Franciscan does though.

4) For students coming to the MA program that have no prior background in theology, it costs about $40,000. I knew full well that I was going to pay a lot and I was willing to do it, because, after all it was Franciscan and I was on a mission. Well, I'm still on a mission....but I also could have should have gone to a better school for a fraction of the price. This school is a scam.

5) I'm sorry to say this, but I personally never learned anything from a catechist. In my experience, they were never able to help me with any of my difficult philosophical objections to the faith when I was first looking to the Church. Most, I realized, ultimately relied upon some kind of fideism. I'm not saying that this is you! Just that where I was when I was searching that CCD people were more a barrier than a help. I don't know what you mean by "educated" people. And I don't know why anyone would HAVE to go to a catechist to answer their questions. In my experience a good book or apologetic website was always more effective if I had burning questions.

6) My children (I have one daughter) will never take CCD class at our parish. They will "mingle" with plenty of children, but I think that their religious education is our responsibility. Vatican II actually says as much, we are the primary educators of our children in this matter and it is our God given duty to fulfill it.

7) The grace of God reached me in SPITE of my CCD teachers, not because of it. I do work to evangelize though and I don't belong to a country club.

8) The council of Trent says that? Where? I know that Vatican II specifically calls the laity to do formal catechetical work, but I am pretty sure that Trent does not consider this, not in the sense that you are thinking anyway. You have to show me where you read that. I have a decent grasp of Church history and the development of doctrine...what's "catechetical history" again?