Christians, Jews, Muslims, And The God Of Abraham

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760646' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:07 PM']The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The Muslim "god" causes evil and sin, he causes murder and adultery, and whether he intends good by these evils or not is irrelevant. The Holy Trinity does not cause evil, nor does the Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who is also the originator of the Holy Spirit, cause men to sin. If you worship the "god" of the Muslims, you do not worship the true and living God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.[/quote]

Of course I agree that the Holy Trinity does not cause evil (although God does allow it)-however, theological inaccuracies about the will of God don't, in my view, pervade them from worshipping the true God (in an incomplete/imperfect way). Some of their understandings of the nature of God is misinterpretation (i.e causing sin/evil vs. allowing sin/evil). The Christian belief of Calvinism believes in Predestination, but I don't think we'd argue that they worship a different God. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760647' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:09 PM']How do you understand that verse from Exodus I quoted?[/quote]
I read it the same way that all the Eastern Fathers read it. Anyone who reads the entire narrative sees that Pharaoh has set himself upon an evil course of action, and God gives him up to his own evil will, that is, God will not force him to change. Ultimately, the statement that God hardens a man's heart was understood by the Fathers as God giving a man up to his own desires.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760655' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:12 PM']Of course I agree that the Holy Trinity does not cause evil (although God does allow it)-however, theological inaccuracies about the will of God don't, in my view, pervade them from worshipping the true God (in an incomplete/imperfect way).[/quote]
On this issue we shall have to agree to disagree, because I consider your position heretical, and for me to embrace it I would have to apostatize from the Orthodox faith of the Eastern Fathers.
[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760655' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:12 PM']Some of their understandings of the nature of God is misinterpretation (i.e causing sin/evil vs. allowing sin/evil). The Christian belief of Calvinism believes in Predestination, but I don't think we'd argue that they worship a different God.[/quote]
Comparing Calvinism and Islam is like comparing apples and oranges. Calvinists accept the dogma of the Trinity, while Muslims reject it. On the issue of predestination the Calvinists are heretics, and so they do not hold the true faith inviolate. If a group embraces a heresy that vitiates the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, then that group is not Christian at all (e.g., the Mormons).

Edited January 25, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760649' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:09 PM']So you are saying that modern Islam rejects the doctrine of Qadr? I find that hard to believe. For goodness sake even the letter left by the 911 terrorists is filled with the idea that Allah causes everything.[/quote]

Not exactly, I'm more saying that when one speaks of Islam one is not speaking of one distinct ideology with clearly defined doctrines by all believers but rather more a somewhat amorphous aggregate of a number of varying subsets of beliefs that find some common core in the oneness of Allah and the prophet hood of Muhammad. Some of those subsets would absolutely agree Ash’ari, but others are renegotiating the doctrine or have never accepted predestination in Ash’ari’s sense at all, like Muhammad Asad whom I quoted a bit back. I really don’t look at “Islam” as some pure ideology which has been handed down unchanged from Muhammad until today. When Sayyed Hossein Nasr, Tariq Ramadan, Maulana Muhammad Ali, Shabbir Akhta, and Ziauddin Sardar, all contemporary Islamic thinkers, all but one still alive, speak of "Islam" they have different ideologies in mind. Some of these are very simmilar, Tariq Ramadan and Shabbir Akhtar are both "reformists" operating within the paradigm of traditional Sunni thought but with different programs, but others are starkly different, Sayyed Hossein Nasr is a Shia Muslim with strong Sufi, universalist leanings, his ideology has some very important differences from that of Akhtar etc.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760665' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:19 PM']On this issue we shall have to agree to disagree, because I consider your position heretical, and for me to embrace it I would have to apostatize from the Orthodox faith of the Eastern Fathers.[/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760665' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:19 PM']Comparing Calvinism and Islam is like comparing apples and oranges. Calvinists accept the dogma of the Trinity, while Muslims reject it. On the issue of predestination the Calvinists are heretics, and so they do not hold the true faith inviolate. If a group embraces a heresy that vitiates the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, then that group is not Christian at all (e.g., the Mormons).[/quote]

It doesn't seem logical to say that group A doesn't worship the same God because they believe in predestination but group B does. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760679' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:28 PM']Fair enough.



It doesn't seem logical to say that group A doesn't worship the same God because they believe in predestination but group B does. -Katie[/quote]


I think the Islamic line of thought embracing predestination is more incidental as they reject the trinity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760673' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:24 PM']Not exactly, I'm more saying that when one speaks of Islam one is not speaking of one distinct ideology with clearly defined doctrines by all believers but rather more a somewhat amorphous aggregate of a number of varying subsets of beliefs that find some common core in the oneness of Allah and the prophet hood of Muhammad. . . .[/quote]
I have read creeds from three of the four schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, and not a one of them holds that man can act or cause anything. Which of the four schools now rejects Qadr?

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1760684' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:30 PM']I think the Islamic line of thought embracing predestination is more incidental as they reject the trinity.[/quote]

Yes, you're right. -Katie

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760689' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:34 PM']I have read creeds from three of the four schools of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, and not a one of them holds that man can act or cause anything. Which of the four schools now rejects Qadr?[/quote]


I'm not saying any of them do or do not.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760679' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:28 PM']It doesn't seem logical to say that group A doesn't worship the same God because they believe in predestination but group B does. -Katie[/quote]
Only the Church offers true worship to God, because only the Church (and by this I mean all the Apostolic Churches: Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) can validly make the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's Paschal Mystery. I never said that Calvinists, or Methodists, et al., offer true worship.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760697' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:37 PM']Only the Church offers true worship to God, because only the Church (and by this I mean all the Apostolic Churches: Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox) can validly make the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's Paschal Mystery. I never said that Calvinists, or Methodists, et al., offer true worship.[/quote]

But they worship the same God without offering true worship or having a truly correct understanding of God.-Katie

[Apotheoun]

Only those who are Orthodox ([i]ortho[/i] = right, [i]doxa[/i] = glory) in their faith, and who are members of a Church of Apostolic origin (i.e., a Church that possess Apostolic succession), can offer true worship (i.e., the [i]anamnesis[/i] of Christ's life, death, resurrection, and ascension) to the Father, through the Son, in the power and energy of the Spirit.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1760706' date='Jan 24 2009, 08:40 PM']But they worship the same God without offering true worship or having a truly correct understanding of God.-Katie[/quote]
I have no qualms in saying that when I was a Methodist I did not offer true worship to God, because the Methodist Church does not have bishops and priests ordained in Apostolic succession, and so that "church" does not possess a valid Eucharist.

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1760710' date='Jan 24 2009, 11:42 PM']I have no qualms in saying that when I was a Methodist I did not offer true worship to God, because the Methodist Church does not have bishops and priests ordained in Apostolic succession, and so that "church" does not possess a valid Eucharist.[/quote]

I agree with you but I think true worship is a different issue. One can worship the same God while having some incorrect perceptions about Him. -Katie

[Apotheoun]

Orthodoxy means true glory, true praise, true worship. Thus, if a man truly worships God it means that he possesses the Orthodox faith of the Church. Now, a Muslim by definition does not possess the Orthodox faith of the Church, and so he does not offer true worship to God.