Unbaptized Infants

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1533294' date='May 19 2008, 03:54 AM']BUT, in the case of infants, it is possible that they enjoy God in a 'natural' way after death, in not having the grace to enkjoy the Beatific Vision, i.e.: in a similar or identical way that the rightious would enjoy God after death had God not willed to elevate mankind to the supernatural order.[/quote]
Your hypothetical statement, i.e., "had God not willed to elevate mankind to the supernatural order," has no basis in divine revelation. Although there is a distinction between the natural and the supernatural, they are in fact inseparable, because even the damned will experience God's uncreated energies, but for them the experience will be a painful one because they failed, during their earthly life, to liken themselves to God.

That said, as an Eastern Catholic, I do not recognize the existence of "natural way" of enjoying God that is separate from His supernatural life and glory.

[-I---Love]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1533282' date='May 19 2008, 04:46 AM']There is no such thing as a "natural" end for man; thus all men, including the damned, receive a "supernatural" end. God is the sole beginning and end of creation.[/quote]


[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1533330' date='May 19 2008, 10:20 AM']This is a Western way of looking at things, and I rejected it when I changed sui juris Churches more than three years ago.

There is no "natural" way of enjoying God in the next life, as if nature can be separated from the supernatural gift of God's uncreated energies. Unbaptized babies will share in the glory of God given through the incarnation, which means that they will see God, and grow more and more divine throughout eternity. Divine glory, appropriate to the personal reality each individual, awaits all those who have committed no sins. Only the damned will experience any suffering or loss in relation to God, for they will have only a discursive knowledge of the good in the next life, since they separated themselves from the good through their actions during their earthly life.[/quote]

I am glad you took this approach to the ? and brought up this important point. In reading the old school new advent article that I first posted, this was one of the main issues that was of interest to me.

Apotheoun - which then of the above 3 "options" Thessalonian offered to you most closely adhere to?
Your stmt that they will "grow more and more divine throughout eternity" concerns me. For instance, once in eternity there is no change, correct? I am off to read the thread you linked so perhaps you already answered my ?'s there.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1534129' date='May 19 2008, 06:47 PM']Apotheoun - which then of the above 3 "options" Thessalonian offered to you [do you] most closely adhere to?[/quote]
None of them, because they are all based upon an Augustinian view of the nature of man after the ancestral sin, which is a theological perspective that is foreign to the doctrinal tradition of the Eastern Churches.

P.S. - Of the four options presented, no. 4 itself is the least problematic, but I prefer my own Church's tradition over that of the Western Augustinian / Scholastic viewpoint.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

The Eastern tradition holds that there will be degrees of glory for those who participate in the vision of God, and that the divine vision entails a never-ending movement (i.e., [i]epektasis[/i]) or infinite progression into the tri-hypostatic God, who is infinitely beyond the infinite, but there is no "limbo" nor is an innocent man ever damned.

Thus, I believe:

1. That an unbaptized baby that dies in infancy experiences the vision of God received through the incarnation of the eternal Logos, but does not receive the glory given through baptism, chrismation, and eucharist, or through the practice of ascetic virtue.

2. That a baptized baby that dies before reaching the age of reason receives the glory given through the sacraments of baptism, chrismation, and eucharist, but does not receive the glory given through ascetic practice.

3. That a man who is fully initiated into the Church through baptism, chrismation, and eucharist, and who goes on to live a life of virtue receives the glory of the sacraments, and the glory achieved in cooperation with God’s energy through the practice of ascesis.

Finally, as St. Gregory Palamas said: "Sensible light shows things to our senses. The intellectual light is to manifest the truth which is contained in thoughts. But those who receive the spiritual or supernatural Light, perceive what is beyond all intellect. They participate in the divine energies and become themselves, in a sort, Light. When they unite to the Light, they see with it in full all that is hidden from those who have not seen the grace of Light. The Uncreated Light is the Light where God makes Himself manifest to those who enter into union with Him."

[-I---Love]

Thanks for sharing...

[93 Phillies]

The idea of an unbaptized infant going to hell is completely absurd. Would aborted babies also go to hell? I don't buy into the vision of God where He is depicted as being so unjust.

[-I---Love]

[quote name='93 Phillies' post='1538370' date='May 23 2008, 02:22 AM']The idea of an unbaptized infant going to hell is completely absurd. Would aborted babies also go to hell? I don't buy into the vision of God where He is depicted as being so unjust.[/quote]

No one else here does either. However, it is simply an "option" when asking this question.