Second Entrance: Let's Get It Right This Time

[Hemma]

Hi everybody, yesterday I read Marigold's story and I thought, perhaps we could collect a few tips regarding the second try.

I did leave not because consecrated life would not be my vocation - but because it just was the wrong place. Maybe it was also the wrong moment.

 

For me, the first try was a bit like Marigold wrote,

"....I went into it with 100% body and soul. Which is maybe why coming back has been such a shock - because on some level I truly wasn't expecting to, and had let go of a lot of the things we use to survive out in the 'jungle' even before I left..."

 

That's why I'd like to avoid a second failure as far as possible. I think I just couldn't survive it. The biggest question is at the moment how to find the right monastery, but I think there are other interesting aspects as well.

 

Entering a second time is not the same thing as entering the first time, because we already know what a massive thing it is to enter - and that it might go wrong as well. In my experience it makes a huge difference.

[maximillion]

I can't second your thoughts more highly. I only ever entered once, but know what it was like to come out into the world again.

 

I have elsewhere stated that it would be good, IMO for it not to be such a big deal to enter, as it is after all a try out and there may be many reasons why it is not the right fit. If it were not such a big deal to enter it would be less of a deal to leave and try again.

 

Of course we want to strike a balance between not becoming serial try-ers but at the same time recognising fully pre-entry that it may not work out. The recent developments where communities have put another tier of the try out in place via Aspirancy or Candidature are to be lauded. Perhaps it would be good for all communities to have live-ins....?

Saying I am going on a live in or a try out is very different to saying I am entering, with the emotional and spiritual connotations that has, and the fall out if it does not work out. Moving on to entry into Postulancy at a later date and calling that entry is better, to my way of thinking.

 

Advice I would give pre try out/entry/second try out.....

 

DON'T burn your bridges. Keep some money back with a friend or in a bank account for fall back if it comes to that.

Get unpaid leave of absence from work rather than hand in your notice if you can.

Reassign your flat or accommodation temporarily, again, if you can manage this, so you have familiarity if you have to come back.

Talk to friends and family and impress on them that while you hope and pray otherwise, this is a try out and it may not work out. Talk about how you would like their approach to be if this should happen, and how they might support you.

 

For the second time around - what was the hardest thing about the convent and community life for you? How can you mitigate/prepare yourself this time around?

What was the most important thing you learned from your stay in a spiritual sense? How have you built on this in the intervening time and how have you changed as a result?

What did you find out about your own personal spiritual style or inclination and will the community you are discerning with now assist the flowering of that very specifically?

(Spiritual style = eremitic or not. Sung liturgy/full LOTH  or not. Work/appostolate/prayer mix. Community time vs time alone. Penitential practices. etc.)

 

What would YOU say to someone thinking of trying again - really think about this and be sure to take your own advice!

[marigold]

Senensis and Max, these are really great ideas you've brought up, and I'm going to try to think deeply about them and find an answer from my own experience. It's easy to say, 'Oh God, I never want to deal with X again!', harder to find a positive alternative to it and take responsibility for what happens next...

[cmaD2006]

My one big piece of advice ... do whatever you can to get a solid spiritual director. And see if you can process fully whatever the 1st experience was.

I entered and left twice, and my current spiritual diector was key in my being able to deal with the issues from the second community. I kind of wished I was where I am today back 10 years ago ... then maybe I'd be in religious life.

It is what it is ... and well I am at least thankful to spiritually/psychologically be where I am at now. I'm probably the most "whole" I've ever been.

[Hemma]

Oh, I have a SD. And it's ehm a bit difficult.

My traineeship is going to end in 8 months, that means, I'll automatically be out of work then, unless I don't apply for something. That also means it's not worth the trouble to search for a new SD. (I think this would make things even more complicated.) I also can't hold the flat after entrance, or only for a short time, due to the costs. I can't give the furniture to my parents, because they have no space at all for items bigger than my cello. Entering at all will be a big thing. Coming back still more.

 

[maximillion]

Senesis - can you temporarily re-assign your flat to someone who will pay the rent?

I do really think it is better not to burn all the bridges......

 

Of course entering is a big thing, but is there anything you can do to view it a little differently? Do you see it as a try out or as a once for all my lifetime event? Many of us have been caught out by thinking it is a once for all time event, then the fit is not right and we have to leave with all the upset that causes. There is nothing wrong with putting faith in God and hoping it will work out, that is not the same as having a fully fledged expectation that it will.

[Hemma]

Well, I've developped several ideas. One is: After traineeship I might enter for a month or two, until I feel I'm right at the place. Then return and dissolve my appartment (not before). Another is - if it doesn't work in the actual community: Very likely I won't have the wish to return in the world, but still look for another community/monastery/vocation. I might change directly and not move into the world again, at least not for a longer period of time.

 

Yesterday I've called the monastery which is my actual hope. I've got some unexpected holiday starting next saturday and want to spend it there. (It needed a novena to St. Therese of Lisieux to get that holiday). The phone was answered by a certain Sr. Raphaela. As I've been there only for one weekend before, full to the brim with new information, I didn't immediately realize which sister it was. It took five minutes of small talk until I got it: oh my gosh it's the Abbess herself... :doh: Then we had a beautiful conversation. I already love her, she's really special. And I'm not easily impressed.

[superblue]

 

 

Advice I would give pre try out/entry/second try out.....

 

DON'T burn your bridges. Keep some money back with a friend or in a bank account for fall back if it comes to that.

Get unpaid leave of absence from work rather than hand in your notice if you can.

Reassign your flat or accommodation temporarily, again, if you can manage this, so you have familiarity if you have to come back.

Talk to friends and family and impress on them that while you hope and pray otherwise, this is a try out and it may not work out. Talk about how you would like their approach to be if this should happen, and how they might support you.

 

 

Also some questions about community living

 

 

At what point does a community then expect a person to take a vow of poverty, if said community has a literal financial vow of poverty / ownership.....  An then if someone does go the route you suggest, which does make great sense, it is a bit of a C.Y.B thing, would it be of some kind of dishonesty almost on that persons part to do such a thing going in, if that community is of the mind set he or she has or is giving up what they have to enter into the community ?

 

And for some communities there is one general HQ ( for a lack of knowing the proper word ) and then others may have a home or apartment they share with another person with in that community, whom then with in that order is taking ownership of that property , and how are bills and etc split up with in a community.   

 

Just for my own clarification, just focusing on the Franciscans, they take vows of poverty, yet will share homes, and cars, and food, who owns the titles to the big items and big bills, and who manages who on making sure people have coverage for things that need it. How are things like that figured out ? I never really got to ask this question. Before my come and see... It was just here we are, here are a few places we live at, and by the way you have to have medical coverage ( though I forgot to ask if it were necessary in order to join them ).

 

Also  I assumed ( and wrongly ) that communities are assigned work, to either work at a Catholic school, or hospital, or assigned some where, but it seems like most or some are expected to get a regular 9/5 job on their own, like anyone else who has to hunt for work. If with in a community people still have to hunt for their own jobs to provide for their own living, or to contribute to that community, what happens to the individual if he or she can not find employment ?

[maximillion]

Superblue........as far as I am aware, all communities realise that the Aspirancy/postulancy is a try out on your behalf as well as that of the community and most would not have an expectation that you act like you already took the Vow of poverty at the point where you entered. The 'giving everything up' tends to refer to family, friends, internet and social media, personal choice etc rather than to finances at this early stage.

 

Ownership of material goods only ceases as an absolute once you are at the stage of taking Vows, and it is not at all dishonest to let your VD know that you have a little in reserve 'just in case' which will eventually accrue to the community at Vows.

 

As to the financial management of a community, this is usually the province of the elected members (they might be called Mother, or Superior or another honorific title),or in Chapter in communities (usually monastic) where everyone in Vows gets a say. 

 

It is NOT common for communities with an apostolate to expect members to find their own jobs. I personally know of only two communities who do this. Little Sisters of Jesus and the Fraternites de Jerusalem. You are right in thinking most communities assign (Mission) Sisters to a particular role.

If the community you discern with is one where you are expected to get a job on your own rather than be Missioned, you would have to take it up with that community about what would happen if you couldn't get a job.

 

 

And for some communities there is one general HQ ( for a lack of knowing the proper word ) and then others may have a home or apartment they share with another person with in that community, whom then with in that order is taking ownership of that property , and how are bills and etc split up with in a community.   

 

 

The answer to this will have to come from the particular community, there is no hard and fast system that applies to all communities. Again, these communities I would say are in the minority rather than the majority. Most communities you join will meet all of your material needs once you enter the noviciate.

[TIWW]

I think another interesting dilemma is that there are quite a few discerners who hope to be Carmelites .Of all of the many cloistered communities out there,this one probably has the most drastic adjustment from our every day living. We are so bombarded out here with constant external noise and stimuli, so used to making all of our own decisions about everything, and having instant gratification  for most of our needs and wants. All of this comes to an abrupt halt once the enclosure door closes behind us.And sadly, many Carmelite houses do not allow for live ins. The culture here in the US is one of abundance, and myriads of choices about almost everything. For the young especially, not having abundance and choice is difficult to even imagine. For those looking at this form of Monastic enclosed living, might be good to somehow have an opportunity to enter into this in stages. Don't have any idea how this would work, but I think it is a serious issue today. Maybe there are some here who have gone through this who have some insights and recommendations as to how to navigate these initial phases of strictly enclosed Religious life.

[marigold]

Cross-posting for future reference - the thread Senensis mentioned in the original post:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/127339-thats-all-folks-or-so-i-thought/

[marigold]

Hi everybody, yesterday I read Marigold's story and I thought, perhaps we could collect a few tips regarding the second try.
I did leave not because consecrated life would not be my vocation - but because it just was the wrong place. Maybe it was also the wrong moment.
...
Entering a second time is not the same thing as entering the first time, because we already know what a massive thing it is to enter - and that it might go wrong as well. In my experience it makes a huge difference.

 

...
Saying I am going on a live in or a try out is very different to saying I am entering, with the emotional and spiritual connotations that has, and the fall out if it does not work out. Moving on to entry into Postulancy at a later date and calling that entry is better, to my way of thinking.

I can't count the number of times I've asked why the first time had to happen if it wasn't to work out. Why didn't God just wait until I was older and smarter, why did I have to fall in love only to fall out of it again in the worst way.... And we say it a lot on VS, but I've realised that it's true: because it's the only way we learn. I am now older and smarter - thanks to the passage of time, and those difficult experiences.

For the second time around - what was the hardest thing about the convent and community life for you? How can you mitigate/prepare yourself this time around?
The hardest thing was being under obedience to someone whose judgment I didn't trust. It makes the whole thing completely pointless. This time around, I'll observe and pray long and hard about the abbess, without worrying that it's sinfully judging her. And without glossing over problems in my mind, thinking that it'll 'all work out'.

What was the most important thing you learned from your stay in a spiritual sense? How have you built on this in the intervening time and how have you changed as a result?
I learned that I really love monastic life and it can be a way to salvation for me. That has meant that while I've experimented with a lot of other things, travelled, got new hobbies etc. since I've been out, there's not been any real doubt in my mind that a monastery is the best and most obvious place I should be. I count this a real blessing, as I can see how a bad monastery experience could turn someone off ever wanting to do it again. I suppose I've built on it and changed in the sense that I've made long-term choices in favour of monastic life (like not getting married ;)) and I'm more relaxed about the idea that God wants ME as a nun, not my best impersonation of a nun.

What did you find out about your own personal spiritual style or inclination and will the community you are discerning with now assist the flowering of that very specifically?
I need a strong community life and a lot of structure, mixed with the freedom to use my own brain, e.g. do work that I have a gift for. (Ideally. I don't at all mind housekeeping and basic work.) I think I'd struggle in a more skete-like community (a skete is a looser-structured Orthodox monastery, often with separate houses on the same property and communal prayer only once or twice a day), simply because of the temptation to create my own little world with things as I want them. That was the thing with my former community - too much work and too few people meant there was no regulation or communication - sisters simply went to their own 'jobs' and did as they pleased. I don't know how this is going to work with the new community I might be involved in, as that'll be very small and unstructured at least at first.

[petitpèlerin]

Thanks, Marigold. Some things you said are super helpful to me. I entered a community last fall, discerned out, and now I'm discerning with another one. I especially like what you said about God wanting you as a nun and not your best impression of a nun. Where I was, I felt like I wasn't being myself and couldn't be myself, I don't know if it was at all related to the leadership but I do know that I knew that I could have struggled through the challenges of different personalities and cultures and human imperfections if I believed I was meant to be one of those sisters, but at some point I just realized I wasn't, and that was what I had gone there to discern, so praise God, my time there was a success.

From the time I've spent visiting the second community, I know I can be completely myself in their life, everything that didn't fit in the first one fits just right in the second one. I feel strongly that if religious life is for me then it's with these sisters. I know I have a contemplative vocation, now I'm working on discerning lay vs religious life. Everything you said in that paragraph about your discernment of monastic life as the best means to your salvation is super helpful to me, too. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

[petitpèlerin]

I just want to say a little more about my discernment, in response to the OP:

The first community I entered was an active-contemplative one. I knew that the contemplative dimension was an essential aspect of my life no matter what and thought that an active-contemplative life would be ideal: a way to give back to others what I've received, a way to be a witness in the world, etc. Then I entered, and I soon found that I couldn't keep up with the activities of daily life. I mean, I could do it, I did it, but I felt like I was dying inside. I longed for holy hours, for our once-a-week days of prayer in solitude, for any free time to spend in solitude. I felt like "what do you people want from me, don't you understand that I need to be alone?" Once I became aware of how I felt, it was obvious to me that it was a very simple matter of discernement. I'm grateful that I'm not young, that I'd lived my life long enough and knew myself well enough to be able to make that discernment, or I might still be struggling through it.

The community I'm discerning with now has the same spirituality as the first one (I don't doubt  that it's the right one for me) but they are fully contemplative sisters. When I visited them for a couple weeks I slipped into their rhythm of life like I was discovering my own life being lived better than I live it myself. I would be challenged there to overcome my weaknesses and be the self I'm meant to be, and it would have its crosses of course but I would be stretched there rather than broken. If I do enter there it won't be with any fear of failure, since I know that my "failure" in the first community was a matter of fit, and I already know that this community fits me like that one didn't. It's all been a great learning experience. I'm by no means a expert but my recommendation for others is to look past personalities and personal conflicts and injuries and look to the life and the fit, it's about how you fit in the spirit and the work of the community.

[maximillion]

This

 

 

 

I'm more relaxed about the idea that God wants ME as a nun, not my best impersonation of a nun.

 

 

and this

 

 

 

like I was discovering my own life being lived better than I live it myself. I would be challenged there to overcome my weaknesses and be the self I'm meant to be, and it would have its crosses of course but I would be stretched there rather than broken.

 

 

YES!

 

Priceless.