Pope Francis Washed The Feet Of 12 Young Detainees

[mortify]

The Holy Spirit doesnt choose the Pope, men do

[Nihil Obstat]

No, that's what I'm getting at.  There's a stereotype that "traditional" Catholics don't like to go do public works of service, while the "liberal" ones go volunteer and make felt banners.  My point is exactly what you're doing; there shouldn't be this big divorce between serving and good liturgy.  Novus Ordo people are just as bad as anyone else when it comes to serving, btw.  To me it seems like different popes have emphasized different parts of what it means to be Catholic, and we don't have to worry. 

But the solution to this is not to ignore liturgy. That is the problem here. Like you said, good liturgy and service go hand in hand, which is why traditional Catholics become very concerned when the liturgy is altered or sometimes ignored, in favour of some good work.

[cartermia]

Jesus washed the feet of sinners... as St. Paul said in Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."  Jesus set an example that even the King of Kings or the lowest human being can serve God.  Are we not all part of the Body of Christ? 

 

"

12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. ² You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. ³ Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

⁴ There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. ⁵ There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. ⁶ There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

⁷ Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. ⁸ To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, ⁹ to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, ¹⁰ to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,^[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.^{[b] 11} All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

¹² Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. ¹³ For we were all baptized by^[c] one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. ¹⁴ Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

¹⁵ Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. ¹⁶ And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. ¹⁷ If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? ¹⁸ But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. ¹⁹ If they were all one part, where would the body be? ²⁰ As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

²¹ The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” ²² On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, ²³ and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, ²⁴ while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, ²⁵ so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. ²⁶ If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

²⁷ Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. ²⁸ And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. ²⁹ Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? ³⁰ Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues^[d]? Do all interpret? ³¹ Now eagerly desire the greater gifts."

 

(1 Corinthians 12:1-31)

 

(or at least that what it means to me... a 13 year old.)

Edited March 29, 2013 by cartermia

[Apotheoun]

Of course tradition and symbolism matter.  I think that was one of the great things Benedict did with the focus on more traditional liturgy.  I think Francis is trying to say in this case that showing a profound act of symbolic service and humility to some of the "least brothers" is more important than the word "viri."   How many "traditional" minded people do you know who go out and volunteer in a soup kitchen? Do some kind of service to the poor that doesn't involve a check book? Even have the desire to do so?  It may seem like many of the "little things" have been forgotten and belittled, but I think it's worse when people are forgotten and belittled.  Francis didn't celebrate the Chrism mass in the juvenile prison.  Francis did put on the (gorgeous) stole for the ubi et orbi blessing.  I don't think Francis is opposed to the "little things" or the finery in the slightest.  

Pope Francis is free to emphasize the nature of service, but he does not need to alter the meaning of the Pedilavium Rite within the commemorative context of the Holy Thursday liturgy. The rite of the washing of feet on Holy Thursday commemorates the specific activity of Christ in the Gospel of John when he instituted the Apostles as priestly servants. So altering the meaning of the rite within that context ultimately distorts the commemoration by de-emphasizing the Apostolic priesthood. That said, if Pope Francis wants to wash the feet of every person living in Rome outside of the Holy Thursday liturgy, I am okay with that, but within the logic of the Maundy Thursday rites his action makes no sense.

[Apotheoun]

I don't think I understand the difference between tradition and Tradition. Can someone briefly explain how something is determined to be either tradition or Tradition?

The distinction between 'tradition' and 'Tradition' is a modern Western distinction, and one that I do not accept. I hold to the Patristic distinction between Kerygma and Dogma enunciated by St. Basil the Great in his writings. Kerygma is the doctrine of the faith as found in written Tradition and the teaching of the Church Fathers, while Dogma is the unwritten practices of the Church, the liturgy, the holy mysteries, the sacred signs and actions, and the theological meanings inherent to the Church's worship and doctrine. Outsiders were - according to St. Basil - allowed to know the Kerygma, but only the fully initiated were allowed to know the Dogma of the Church. Moreover, this distinction does not involve the false notion that some of these things come from man alone and can be dispensed with at will. Both the Kerygma and the Dogma of the Church come from Christ, and they are to be faithfully kept by all, both clergy and lay faithful alike.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Apotheoun

[ToJesusMyHeart]

The distinction between 'tradition' and 'Tradition' is a modern Western distinction, and one that I do not accept. I hold to the Patristic distinction between Kerygma and Dogma enunciated by St. Basil the Great in his writings. Kerygma is the doctrine of the faith as found in written Tradition and the teaching of the Church Fathers, while Dogma is the unwritten practices of the Church, the liturgy, the holy mysteries, the sacred signs and actions, and the theological meanings inherent to the Church's worship and doctrine. Outsiders were - according to St. Basil - allowed to know the Kerygma, but only the fully initiated were allowed to know the Dogma of the Church. Moreover, this distinction does not involve the false notion that some of these things come from man alone and can be dispensed with at will. Both the Kerygma and the Dogma of the Church come from Christ, and they are to be faithfully kept by all, both clergy and lay faithful alike.

Sounds legit. :)

[Fidei Defensor]

Did Jesus specify that priests have to wear an amice, alb, cincture, maniple, stole and chasuble to celebrate the liturgy? Can the Roman Pontiff change that tradition?

Still waiting for an answer to this.

[StMichael]

It is also seen as a rejection of Pope Benedict XVI correction to post-Vatican II.

 

I pray that Pope Francis rethinks some of what he is doing and saying as you are correct, if he can alter tradition he can change anything which is not what he has been entrusted to do.

 

 

That would follow if the rite was merely a matter of ecclesiastical law, but it is not about "law"; instead, it is about Tradition (i.e., it is about commemorating what Christ did in instituting priestly service within the Church). 

 

That said, if the pope can alter tradition, he can change anything.

 

[StMichael]

That is not what we believe. The Holy Spirit is working through these men to choose.

 

Otherwise, if you are correct, the Holy Spirit has abandoned His Church, which Christ said would guide His Church.

 

 

The Holy Spirit doesnt choose the Pope, men do

 

[Slappo]

How many "traditional" minded people do you know who go out and volunteer in a soup kitchen? Do some kind of service to the poor that doesn't involve a check book? Even have the desire to do so?  It may seem like many of the "little things" have been forgotten and belittled, but I think it's worse when people are forgotten and belittled.

The most traditional minded priest in my diocese who self taught the TLM so he could begin offering it to some former SSPX followers to help revert them back to the faith and have their children baptized is also one of priests I know who most strongly upholds the social doctrines of the Church to visit the sick, visit the imprisoned, provide food to the hungry, help the pregnant teens, etc. Every mass stipend he recieves is donated, he pushed for my former parish to open up a lunch soup kitchen, he preached a homily to raise funds for pregnant teens who needed money for materials to self make cloth diapers etc. Even as a busy preist he took the lead on organizing and looking towards the needs of many. He looked for both the spiritual and material needs.

 

Whenever I think about how little I do for the poor, I think of him and how guilty I am for failing to serve those in need.

[Apotheoun]

Did Jesus specify that priests have to wear an amice, alb, cincture, maniple, stole and chasuble to celebrate the liturgy? Can the Roman Pontiff change that tradition?

From St. Basil's perspective the vestments of the Christian priesthood are a part of the living dogma of the Church, and - like many Church Fathers - he would say that they ante-date the Church herself, because he connects many of the things associated with the liturgy to the Old Testament priesthood and temple. Can the pope change them? Nope, because they (i.e., the vestments) are a part of the time immemorial practice of the Church. 

Edited March 29, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Fidei Defensor]

From St. Basil's perspective the vestments of the Christian priesthood are a part of the living dogma of the Church, and - like many Church Fathers - he would say that they ante-date the Church herself, because he connects many of the things associated with the liturgy to the Old Testament priesthood and temple. Can the pope change them? Nope, because they (i.e., the vestments) are a part of the time immemorial practice of the Church. 

Makes sense, thanks for the answer.

[add]

I applaud his humility

[Noel's angel]

It depends what you see as humility. 

[mortify]

Is it humble to break from the ways of one's ancestors? Usually the answer is no, unless there is a good reason for doing so.

Edited March 30, 2013 by mortify