What Gives?

[Augusta]

Why is it that when someone (who's a virgin) states that they want to only marry someone who is also a virgin, they are eviscerated for their lack of forgiveness, charity, and even their adherence to the Catholic/Christian faith? This evisceration is done on the grounds that the individual is being judgmental - am I the only one who sees the irony?

There are a variety of reasons why someone could want to only marry a virgin, but there is only one reason that they are assumed to have in Christian/Catholic circles: that of unhinged and hateful malice. Why are they made to feel like human trash for not doing anything wrong?

I say all this because a good friend of mine who I am very close with has decided never to marry. They've actually gained a kind of inferiority complex. I get that some people are bothered by the preference, but fail to realize that lashing out at someone, calling them names, and making them feel awful doesn't make that person want to reconsider. In some cases they give up entirely.

Basically, what gives? Why does this happen in Catholic/Christian circles?

-AK

 

P.S. Sorry if this all comes off as "terse" or "curt".

[Nihil Obstat]

Oh goodness, I hope Norseman does not stumble upon this thread. :P

 

Nice to meet you, Augusta. I hope you enjoy your time here. I have to say that it is a source of joy to me that both my fianceé and I have had the Grace necessary for both of us to approach our wedding day able to offer our virginity to each other.

[EmilyAnn]

Sigh...not again. This discussion was done not all that long ago. 

Although I know better, I just have to say this. Firstly, a person is more than whether or not they are a virgin. If virginity is all one is looking for in a spouse, then they're doing it wrong. Secondly, one can be a physical virgin and have still not lived chastely. Being a virgin does not automatically mean one has always been chaste.

All not being a virgin does is make you a sinner just like everyone else.

[Augusta]

Sigh...not again. This discussion was done not all that long ago. 

Although I know better, I just have to say this. Firstly, a person is more than whether or not they are a virgin. If virginity is all one is looking for in a spouse, then they're doing
it wrong. Secondly, one can be a physical virgin and have still not lived chastely. Being a virgin does not automatically mean one has always been chaste.

 

There was a discussion about virgins being attacked for wanting to marry another virgin? I don't believe I found a thread about that.

 

Do you think it's okay for people to be attacked for setting that criterion? I am also curious why you assume the worst possible motive(s) for someone wanting to marry virgin like themselves. Is that charitable? Do you feel it is impossible for someone to have good motives? Is someone more than there motives to you?

 

I don't think people are really focusing on it as a state. Sure, there are people who will marry a virgin, not someone who is a virgin, but mostly that's not the case. Put another way: virginity is a necessary cause for marriage, but not a sufficient cause (for most people, I think). I of course agree with you on the subject of reduction to a condition (to use the Canon Law term) is not a good thing.

 

Please assume good faith in people's desires and actions.

 

-AK

[Augusta]

Firstly, a person is more than whether or not they are a virgin.

 

True, but someone is also more than their personality, or their appearance, or their education, or their ethnic background, yet people rarely object to someone marrying or not marrying another on those grounds. Is virginity a special case?

 

-AK

[missionseeker]

Personality is a fine filter for marriage. 

 

Ethnic background or color, ummmm hell no. 

 

Demanding a virgin to marry reduces another person to a sexual object in the same way that sleeping around reduces other people to mere sexual objects. We do not deserve spousal love. It is a gift. Even if it is not "perfect" in the package. Also, it is IS harsh and unforgiving to reduce someone to the sum of their sin. God does not do that to us, we should not do it to others. 

 

Preferring or desiring to marry a virgin seems like it would be normal (I've never cared, so I don't have anything to compare it to). But refusing to marry anyone who wasn't as "holy" as someone veiws himself to be is self righteous and wrong. And that is why other Christian take issue with it. It displays a certain sense of entitlement that is not healthy for a Christian. 

[arfink]

To the OP:

 

It's true, there are some men who don't want to marry women who aren't virgins. But that doesn't mean non-virgins cant get married, or that it'll be impossible for them to find a spouse.

 

I would like to believe that most men are beyond doing that kind of thing these days. I would think the important thing isn't whether you've sinned before, but if you've repented. Virginity is indeed a precious gift, but it should hardly come as a surprise in our society that it's not the most common of gifts. Yes, some women do give it away freely before marriage, but a greater number have it taken from them by coercion, rape, or manipulation. Even if she did choose it, she may not be fully culpable, etc. You can't judge a person based solely on if you think they have sinned. For Catholics you also need to look at whether a person has repented of their past life.

 

And anyway, if the stats about porn and masturbation are to be believed, any man who acted like that would be a hypocrite anyway.

Edited January 29, 2013 by arfink

[arfink]

I guess a more to the point answer for the OP:

 

Men who hold out for a virgin spouse aren't doing anything wrong.

 

There are some who in addition to holding our for a virgin spouse will also degrade other women who aren't virgins as being generically unworthy of marriage or affection. That's not right.

 

In addition to that, some men insist on holding out for a virgin while not doing a particularly grand job of protecting their own virginity. That just makes them look like jerks.

 

If you can avoid the last 2 bits, there is nothing wrong with waiting for a virgin spouse. Nothing at all wrong with it. :)

[Basilisa Marie]

Welcome! :) 

 

I think virginity is actually a pretty terrible standard.  It doesn't have a standard meaning anymore.  Is someone who chronically masturbates a virgin? What about someone who does everything but that specific deed? What about someone who had their virginity taken from them against their will?   I think you have to look at the reasons why someone wants to marry a virgin.  Is it because you're looking for someone who takes their faith seriously?  That's a good thing to look for in a person.  Or is it because you don't want to have "shared" your spouse with anyone else? That's a bad thing.  

 

Saying that you only want to marry a virgin leaves no room for growth or forgiveness. It basically says that you want someone who has never made a mistake, and that someone who has made a mistake is irrevocably damaged goods.  And that's not true, by any Christian standard.  It's much better to look for someone who loves their faith and strives to practice virtue, no matter what their past looks like. 

[CatherineM]

I just don't have the energy today.

[4588686]

It's a stupid, sexist criteria that is found in the Old Testament (with the added bonus that you could kill the silly sally once she was discovered) but then Jesus was like 'lol jk' on all the disproportionate killing his father advocated so now people are like 'dude, wth' when people forget that even though the bible is extremely sexist and misogynistic christians aren';t supposed to be and that's what it means when we make a stand against gay marriage.  

Welcome! :)

 

I think virginity is actually a pretty terrible standard.  It doesn't have a standard meaning anymore.  Is someone who chronically masturbates a virgin?

 

 

:unsure:

[Era Might]

This is a broad topic, though it could be interesting to explore, but I'll just say worldviews change...obviously people today have a different perspective on relationships, for many reasons, but relevant scripture would be:

 

 

Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh." But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.

 

--1Corinthians 6:15-17

In the early church there was a deep sense of purity...there was disagreement whether one could even be forgiven more than once after baptism, and there was also the controversy over whether people who lapsed from the faith or apostasized for fear of persecution could return to the church.

 

The more "lenient" perspective on non-virgins today, no doubt, has something to do with larger theological shifts in perspective and emphasis in modern times.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Era Might

[MissyP89]

We definitely have the right to sit down and figure out what it is we want or need in a potential spouse. Everyone is different. I know for some it can be hard marrying/giving yourself to someone knowing they've already shared that experience with someone else.

 

They tend to be eviscerated because -- and this is the honest truth -- most people we have seen in this community wanting to marry a virgin *are* unforgiving and condescending toward others.

 

That is not a reflection on you, Augusta. But conversations about this subject in the past have turned heated and very personal. People who are not virgins were treated as though they were unworthy of a virgin's love or damaged goods. A lot of people were hurt. Again, that has nothing to do with you ... but please try to be patient as this is a sensitive topic in the phamily.

 

I mean this in charity and love: I can't help but notice your original post seems highly defensive and almost confrontational. Perhaps a little gentleness and a helpful explanation of why you'd like to marry a virgin would have better results. :)

God bless you. Welcome aboard!

Edited January 29, 2013 by MissyP89

[Autumn Dusk]

There are two sides to the coin.

 

What I think the virgins seeking virgins are saying is.

"I don't want to invest my time in someone who has been romantically, emotinally and sexually attached to another becuase I want for us to give this gift to eachother"

 

What I think many people express is:

Why hold my mistake, or others mistakes against me/them

 

What I believe is that in marriage two people sholder eachother's burdans.  In essance someone's past and sins become your own.  Lets say that there was a woman who was in her late 40's, dating a man who was in his late 40's when the possiblity of children was very small.  The man had 3 disabled adult nieces who were the children of his much older brother who he was expected to care for.  The woman would be within her right to say, I do not think that my ability to handle things extends to your 3 disabled nieces.  No one would blame her for this judgment...some would find her callous, but expecting her to take on the burdan is not reasonable.  Hopefully, the man will find a woman who is willing, but why should the woman be told she is "bad" for not wanting to take on the burdans?

[Augusta]

As a general preface to my comments that follow, I have to say I'm surprised, even shocked, at the level judgment, assumption, and presumption in the comments so far. How do I justify this observation? Mainly the fact that my original post was completely ignored; everyone seems to have read "Begin the virgin vs non-virgin debate!" Clearly I did not write anything of the sort, nor did I desire to start any such debate. The fact that men seeking virgins was immediately assumed, without prior instigation is another consistent example that people have jumped to conclusions. The presumption of bad faith, that is, everyone who wants to marry a virgin must have evil or selfish intentions is quite judgmental. I suppose the ascribing of malicious intentions to desires that need not be malicious only seeks to justify the judgmental attitudes. Perhaps you can prove me wrong?

 

 I expected much more learned, balanced, and charitable responses.

 

-AK