Does Anyone Know Anything About This Carmel?

[Totally Franciscan]

Has anyone had contact with or know of anything of this Carmel? I would be grateful for any information other than that on their website. It looks as though their website has not been updated in many years. Thanks.

http://motherofgodcarmel.org/

[Chiara Francesco]

I did a few years back. I'd have to dig up the emails from the Mother Prioress but unless it has changed, it was a very unusual Carmel. I was asked to visit and before I did (due to lack of time off work and funds), I wanted to know all I could about them before I went and used the time and money here when I could go elsewhere.

Well, at first all was great with basic info and telling them about me but when I started asking questions about things in some of the pictures, info on the website and from what she (the Mother) sent me and wrote to me in emails, I got uninvited right away! Very strange. I actually didn't ask all that many questions and not all I wanted as some of my questions I knew would be better answered on a visit if I went.

Ok, dug up some excerpts from the Prioresses' emails (minus personal things) - this was in 2008 so things may have changed:

[i]"[font="Arial"][size="2"]Our observance, and situation is much different then theirs...as we are in a suburban area, and[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]have a large 'enclosure' involving lots of gardening, and outdoor activities. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] We are a small community...seven, and quite 'international'. We are three Americans, one Kenyan, one[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]Canadian, one Korean, and one British. We really enjoy one another![/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] We have a happy community, and a lovely enclosure, with a redwood forest. However, we are quite 'poor', [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]requiring that we earn our livlihood. Although Marin Co. has a high population of wealthy people, those are not[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]the people who are interested in us. We have many, many dear devoted friends, but all blessed with poverty.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] Our work is mostly canning the fruit we grow here, desk top printing, and we have several Novenas during the [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]course of the year, which means a large mailing and maintaining a very busy mailing office.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] Also, our youngest, she has made her temporary profession and intends to make her final vows in time.(she has been with us about three years) is a lively 53.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] We would love to meet you, and perhaps you could possibly visit us. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]Please feel free to ask any questions you wish...and let us try to get acquainted![/size][/font][/i]"


[i]"[font="Arial"][size="2"]I see you have some questions that i forgot to answer:[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]We are Latin Rite. We love the Byzantine Liturgy, and some years ago we used to be able to[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]accompany as a choir a Byzantine Mass. However, now we know some Byzantine hymns, but[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]hardly ever have a Byzantine Mass.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] God bless you! I hope you will be able to come out and visit. It is the best way to see what[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]we are all about...a rather 'family' like community![/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] Sr. D.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]Oh...my goodness...you have quite a questionaire: I will try to answer each question where it is[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]on the screen. Let me know if that works for you."[/size][/font][/i]


[i]"[font="Arial"][size="2"]Yes...it would be great if you could visit us. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]There is no other way to discern properly your vocation. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] We will all keep you in our prayers.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] I share your emails with the Sisters![/size][/font][/i]

[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] God bless you! Sr. D."[/size][/font][/i]


ONE OF MY EMAILS TO THEM AFTER THEY SENT SOME THINGS IN THE SNAIL MAIL TO ME:
"Dear Mother D,

I want to thank you for your envelope with your Weekly Horarium and folder on your monastery you sent me. I got it today. I was wondering in the Horarium where there is the Terce/Sext/None O.R. and Compline offices are said privately is that because you have a hermit like Carmel or something? I ask because I am used to seeing all the offices prayed/sung/chanted by all the sisters in the choir so your Horarium was different to me. Or is this more common than I thought? Your Hororium is vey interesting and it seems like your Carmel has more alone time or hermit time for the sisters?

I may be way off so you must tell me! I am still very interested in coming to visit you all and so I will let you know the second I have any dates to give you. God bless and take care."


THEN AFTER MANY EMAILS AN MY LAST ONE (above), I GET THIS ONE:

[i]"[font="Arial"][size="2"]Dear C:[/size][/font][/i]

[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] In answer to your many questions regarding our Community, we discern that you are not being called to our Community.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]You will be in our prayers, and we hope you find the community for which God is calling you. We have discerned that it is[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"]not here.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font="Arial"][size="2"] May God bless you. Sr. D[/size][/font]"[/i]


Mother D was very nice up until that last email with the abrupt ending that was very unusual and something I never encountered anywhere else before. This MY experience when 50 could inquire and not have the same as I did. If you feel interested, do write or call them. Perhaps a new prioress is in now and will be open to questions, not that Mother D was unfriendly because she wasn't.

To be it was God saying "NOT HERE!" so it didn't upset me or really phase me.

[font="Arial"][size="2"] [/size][/font]

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Chiara Francesco' timestamp='1340338362' post='2447327']
I did a few years back. I'd have to dig up the emails from the Mother Prioress but unless it has changed, it was a very unusual Carmel. I was asked to visit and before I did (due to lack of time off work and funds), I wanted to know all I could about them before I went and used the time and money here when I could go elsewhere.

Well, at first all was great with basic info and telling them about me but when I started asking questions about things in some of the pictures, info on the website and from what she (the Mother) sent me and wrote to me in emails, I got uninvited right away! Very strange. I actually didn't ask all that many questions and not all I wanted as some of my questions I knew would be better answered on a visit if I went.

Ok, dug up some excerpts from the Prioresses' emails (minus personal things) - this was in 2008 so things may have changed:

[i]"[font=Arial][size=2]Our observance, and situation is much different then theirs...as we are in a suburban area, and[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]have a large 'enclosure' involving lots of gardening, and outdoor activities. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] We are a small community...seven, and quite 'international'. We are three Americans, one Kenyan, one[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]Canadian, one Korean, and one British. We really enjoy one another![/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] We have a happy community, and a lovely enclosure, with a redwood forest. However, we are quite 'poor', [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]requiring that we earn our livlihood. Although Marin Co. has a high population of wealthy people, those are not[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]the people who are interested in us. We have many, many dear devoted friends, but all blessed with poverty.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] Our work is mostly canning the fruit we grow here, desk top printing, and we have several Novenas during the [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]course of the year, which means a large mailing and maintaining a very busy mailing office.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] Also, our youngest, she has made her temporary profession and intends to make her final vows in time.(she has been with us about three years) is a lively 53.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] We would love to meet you, and perhaps you could possibly visit us. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]Please feel free to ask any questions you wish...and let us try to get acquainted![/size][/font][/i]"


[i]"[font=Arial][size=2]I see you have some questions that i forgot to answer:[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]We are Latin Rite. We love the Byzantine Liturgy, and some years ago we used to be able to[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]accompany as a choir a Byzantine Mass. However, now we know some Byzantine hymns, but[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]hardly ever have a Byzantine Mass.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] God bless you! I hope you will be able to come out and visit. It is the best way to see what[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]we are all about...a rather 'family' like community![/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] Sr. D.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]Oh...my goodness...you have quite a questionaire: I will try to answer each question where it is[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]on the screen. Let me know if that works for you."[/size][/font][/i]


[i]"[font=Arial][size=2]Yes...it would be great if you could visit us. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]There is no other way to discern properly your vocation. [/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] We will all keep you in our prayers.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] I share your emails with the Sisters![/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=Arial][size=2]God bless you! Sr. D."[/size][/font][/i]


ONE OF MY EMAILS TO THEM AFTER THEY SENT SOME THINGS IN THE SNAIL MAIL TO ME:
"Dear Mother D,

I want to thank you for your envelope with your Weekly Horarium and folder on your monastery you sent me. I got it today. I was wondering in the Horarium where there is the Terce/Sext/None O.R. and Compline offices are said privately is that because you have a hermit like Carmel or something? I ask because I am used to seeing all the offices prayed/sung/chanted by all the sisters in the choir so your Horarium was different to me. Or is this more common than I thought? Your Hororium is vey interesting and it seems like your Carmel has more alone time or hermit time for the sisters?

I may be way off so you must tell me! I am still very interested in coming to visit you all and so I will let you know the second I have any dates to give you. God bless and take care."


THEN AFTER MANY EMAILS AN MY LAST ONE (above), I GET THIS ONE:

[i]"[font=Arial][size=2]Dear C:[/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=Arial][size=2] In answer to your many questions regarding our Community, we discern that you are not being called to our Community.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]You will be in our prayers, and we hope you find the community for which God is calling you. We have discerned that it is[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2]not here.[/size][/font][/i]
[i][font=Arial][size=2] May God bless you. Sr. D[/size][/font]"[/i]


Mother D was very nice up until that last email with the abrupt ending that was very unusual and something I never encountered anywhere else before. This MY experience when 50 could inquire and not have the same as I did. If you feel interested, do write or call them. Perhaps a new prioress is in now and will be open to questions, not that Mother D was unfriendly because she wasn't.

To be it was God saying "NOT HERE!" so it didn't upset me or really phase me.

[font=Arial][size=2] [/size][/font]
[/quote]

I do think that abrupt end was kind of rude. I know I would have been terribly hurt by it, especially since I had not even visited yet. To be fair, you did ask some rather odd questions (Like the ones about the horarium), so I can understand if she got frustrated, but I do not think this permitted a "You are not called here." type letter. After all, my spiritual director told me living in Religious community means living with Religious people you do not know that have the capabilities and means to annoy you at no end. Ask Saint Therese about Sister Augustine in Heaven one day. I'm sure she could have written a novel about it if she had more time. But, one thing in Religious life is obedience, and the superior is the voice of God. I am glad you at least were not hurt by it.

[Strictlyinkblot]

That's unfortunately but it saved you discernment time I suppose. I don't see anything wrong with the questions you asked but who knows.

[maximillion]

I don't see anything at all wrong in what you asked, in fact this would have piqued my interest oot and your questions were not about the nuns but about their Observance.
TBH any community of enclosed religious who didn't indicate the nature of their prayer life and how much of it was prayer in common would ring alarm bells with me. Why would they want to hide that information?

I have not heard of them before but maybe someone else has..........

[OnlySunshine]

Someone on another forum recommended them to me when I was looking for a Carmelite order that would accept people with medication needs. However, I never got in contact with them because their website just didn't do it for me.

[Chiara Francesco]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1340345153' post='2447353']
I do think that abrupt end was kind of rude. I know I would have been terribly hurt by it, especially since I had not even visited yet. To be fair, you did ask some rather odd questions (Like the ones about the horarium), so I can understand if she got frustrated, but I do not think this permitted a "You are not called here." type letter. After all, my spiritual director told me living in Religious community means living with Religious people you do not know that have the capabilities and means to annoy you at no end. Ask Saint Therese about Sister Augustine in Heaven one day. I'm sure she could have written a novel about it if she had more time. But, one thing in Religious life is obedience, and the superior is the voice of God. I am glad you at least were not hurt by it.
[/quote]

It was a bit rude and since I did not print ALL the email from this prioress and how much they wanted me to visit, etc. and then that answer with really no reason wasn't nice. I was not about to waste time and money to a place that wasn't for me and with questions that is how you find out.

I asked those questions about their horarium because I wanted to find the reasoning for their being like Carmel who have ALL the Offices with the nuns together in choir - not counting Hermit Carmel communities. And in their literature, emails and website gave me much to question and ponder on.

As I am NOT yet in a community, what you write is true if one WAS. But as I was just a discerner, there is no reason my questions could not have been answered and their last email would have been better phrased with "we could talk better in person" or something.

There is a thread on this forum started by Tradmom or someone who gives a long list of questions to ask orders so asking questions is not unusual and I did not ask personal questions.

With my job and finances, I can only see and visit maybe two a year if I am lucky if the visit is to be a week or so. A quick weekend is possible IF I have the money so I have to find out all I can on an order before I use up these resources. I am not going to an order blind and THEN find out they are modern, planning something strange down the line (like going modified habit or changing what makes them a Carmel or whatever order).

And God DOES direct a person to and away from orders/communities in this way and others. I know this from my experience and in vocation stories I've heard from nuns sitting at their grilles in their parlor. God attracts someone to an order in funny ways sometimes and he steers them away from orders funny too.

In emailing them for a long time and with the literature they sent to me, the are NOT a Carmel in the way of St. Teresa of Avila - not bad or schismatic but not a "normal" Carmel and I was wanting to she HOW far from a Teresian Carmel they were before I blew my last visit of a week or so of that year.

This was MY experience and others will have different ones. If God wanted me to visit, that last email would not have "you're not right for us" - which IS God saying "you're not going there" - and I WOULD have gone to visit them.

[Totally Franciscan]

Thank you everyone above, especially Chiara Francesco, for your input. I have been thinking of this community, as it looks from the old photos that they may accept mature vocations. A red flag has gone up for me though about this abrupt dismissal you encountered without them even meeting you. Seems I had better pray long and hard about this.

[Totally Franciscan]

"In emailing them for a long time and with the literature they sent to me, the are NOT a Carmel in the way of St. Teresa of Avila - not bad or schismatic but not a "normal" Carmel and I was wanting to she HOW far from a Teresian Carmel they were before I blew my last visit of a week or so of that year."

Chiara Francesco, I was wondering on what you base your perception that they are not a "normal Carmel". Would it be just that horarium prayer not in common, or something else? I have had a really bad experience of entering a community and finding out after the fact that there were some really bad things going on. Like you, I would like to have a lot of information BEFORE I enter a community so as not to have that same bad experience. If you prefer to answer off Phatmass, please email me. Thanks.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Chiara Francesco' timestamp='1340387170' post='2447500']
It was a bit rude and since I did not print ALL the email from this prioress and how much they wanted me to visit, etc. and then that answer with really no reason wasn't nice. I was not about to waste time and money to a place that wasn't for me and with questions that is how you find out.

I asked those questions about their horarium because I wanted to find the reasoning for their being like Carmel who have ALL the Offices with the nuns together in choir - not counting Hermit Carmel communities. And in their literature, emails and website gave me much to question and ponder on.

As I am NOT yet in a community, what you write is true if one WAS. But as I was just a discerner, there is no reason my questions could not have been answered and their last email would have been better phrased with "we could talk better in person" or something.

There is a thread on this forum started by Tradmom or someone who gives a long list of questions to ask orders so asking questions is not unusual and I did not ask personal questions.

With my job and finances, I can only see and visit maybe two a year if I am lucky if the visit is to be a week or so. A quick weekend is possible IF I have the money so I have to find out all I can on an order before I use up these resources. I am not going to an order blind and THEN find out they are modern, planning something strange down the line (like going modified habit or changing what makes them a Carmel or whatever order).

And God DOES direct a person to and away from orders/communities in this way and others. I know this from my experience and in vocation stories I've heard from nuns sitting at their grilles in their parlor. God attracts someone to an order in funny ways sometimes and he steers them away from orders funny too.

In emailing them for a long time and with the literature they sent to me, the are NOT a Carmel in the way of St. Teresa of Avila - not bad or schismatic but not a "normal" Carmel and I was wanting to she HOW far from a Teresian Carmel they were before I blew my last visit of a week or so of that year.

This was MY experience and others will have different ones. If God wanted me to visit, that last email would not have "you're not right for us" - which IS God saying "you're not going there" - and I WOULD have gone to visit them.
[/quote]

There's no reason to be angry. Those were just my thoughts on the matter. I am not in the best financial situation either and it will not be easy trying to visit a community, but through my experiences with vocations directors they have a handful of things to do and it is best to ask these questions when/if you meet them. I agree the superior should have said so in the letter instead of uninviting you, but everything worked out in the end. God always has a plan and you were not meant to go there.

[emmaberry]

As hard as it must have been for them to end your correspondence that way, it is, as you say, a blessing in disguise. Sometimes I wish God would do this to me--it's such a clear indicator of His Voice directing you. I almost wish more VD's were less sweet and more abrupt. When they are all so saint like it is hard to say, okay, not this community. Does that make sense?

Prayers for your discernment Chiara Francesco and Totally Franciscan!

[AccountDeleted]

I don't see anything wrong in their replies at all. Perhaps if you sent them a constant barrage of questions, they felt that you were more concerned with the externals than the spiritual side of things. I am not saying this was true or saying anything positive about them as I do not know them, but one person's bad experience should not be the basis of everyone else's decisions. I have had bad experiences in several religious communities that I know may not have affected others the same way.

And there are such things as 'perpetual discerners' (those who constantly visit or ask questions but never actually try out the life or really want to be nuns - they are just fascinated by the whole idea of becoming one) - and some communities have learned to see the signals or 'red flag's in persistent petty questions (not that CF is such a person or her questions petty) - I am just trying to point out that we should not make one other person's experience our basis for judging whether a community is right for us. Charity, charity, charity.

Edited June 22, 2012 by nunsense

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1340391801' post='2447528']
There's no reason to be angry. Those were just my thoughts on the matter. I am not in the best financial situation either and it will not be easy trying to visit a community, but through my experiences with vocations directors they have a handful of things to do and it is best to ask these questions when/if you meet them. I agree the superior should have said so in the letter instead of uninviting you, but everything worked out in the end. God always has a plan and you were not meant to go there.
[/quote]

She wasn't upset with you, I don't think. I think she was just emphasizing her previous disappointment.

Edited June 22, 2012 by MaterMisericordiae

[Totally Franciscan]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1340395490' post='2447567']
As hard as it must have been for them to end your correspondence that way, it is, as you say, a blessing in disguise. Sometimes I wish God would do this to me--it's such a clear indicator of His Voice directing you. I almost wish more VD's were less sweet and more abrupt. When they are all so saint like it is hard to say, okay, not this community. Does that make sense?

Prayers for your discernment Chiara Francesco and Totally Franciscan!
[/quote]

Thank you for your prayers, emmaberry! Much appreciated.

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1340400878' post='2447580']
She wasn't upset with you, I don't think. I think she was just emphasizing her previous disappointment.
[/quote]

I am relatively well-learned in writing. She may not have meant it, but the way she emphasized her words it gave off the feeling that she was angry. This is an accident that happens a lot, though, so it could be that she did not mean to.