Guest katie bell Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hello i will just come out with this and im very serious about this, I was diagnosed at 18 and within 2 years i had gender reassignment surger[b]y, I am now 28 years old and [/b]i have not looked back, I have of course through out this been told i live in sin and that im a blank nothing ect but i have kept my faith and here i am here finaly asking the question. I dearly want to become a nun and i want to as the fine people here can i, does the who world think im wrong, I cant and wont go back to how i was Not even my faith could help me with the suport of my comunity. Can i? i would go where ever any order/comunity would take me. Im sorry about this becuase i know this Phorum looks lovly and this just looks so weird but i want to know. Thank you for reading and once again sorry in advance. Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Katie: Blessings and peace to you, now and forever in your journey of faith. All I can suggest is that you find a good spiritual director to start discussing this with. Because of the delicate nature of your situation I can't even fathom an answer, and the best charity is to send you to a spiritual director who can start to know you best and be able to better guide you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandelynmarie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 katie! I second what cmaria said above. If you don't have a spiritual director, please try to find one who will be sensitive to what you have been through as well as one who is faithful to Church teachings. You are in our prayers that God's will be done in you. Please keep us in yours. You are very brave to post this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Katie, I do not think you have any need to apologize for posting in the 'beautiful' phorum - this phorum is only beautiful because of the posts from our members (which includes you). I feel your question is honest and sincere, and you have been given good advice. A spiritual director can help you to discern. I realize that by saying you are open to 'any order that will take you,' you are trying to be open to the will of God...but...that usually is not how discernment works. The community would have to be a good fit to you spiritually, not just 'take' you. I hope you will be able to find some spiritual guidance as you discern and move forwards. [url=http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P24.HTM]HERE[/url] is the section of canon law that details who may be admitted to religious life. As you can see, your situation is not mentioned explicitly, so it may very well depend upon the individual communities to decide. I cannot speak for them, of course, though like you I suspect that many would consider your situation to be an impediment to entering religious life. But a spiritual director who is more knowledgeable will likely be able to give you better advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='katie bell' timestamp='1326156681' post='2366024'] Hello i will just come out with this and im very serious about this, I was diagnosed at 18 and within 2 years i had gender reassignment surger[b]y, I am now 28 years old and [/b]i have not looked back, I have of course through out this been told i live in sin and that im a blank nothing ect but i have kept my faith and here i am here finaly asking the question. I dearly want to become a nun and i want to as the fine people here can i, does the who world think im wrong, I cant and wont go back to how i was Not even my faith could help me with the suport of my comunity. Can i? i would go where ever any order/comunity would take me. Im sorry about this becuase i know this Phorum looks lovly and this just looks so weird but i want to know. Thank you for reading and once again sorry in advance. Katie [/quote] Katie I see a lot of difficulties associated with your choice because of the legalities of your situation, but you would need not only to seek spiritual direction but perhaps advice from a canon lawyer. In order to enter a convent, you would need to present your birth certificate and your baptismal and confirmation records, have a reference from a parish priest and depending on your situation, perhaps other legal documentation. Not know the circumstance of your medical condition that required this procedure to be done, I have no definite advice to give, but before becoming a nun, one must be in full communion with the Church and her teachings and be in a state of grace. Since none of us here can determine these things for you, the only answer for you is to seek canonical and spiritual guidance. Your diocesan office may be the place to start to find professionals who can offer advice to you. I am not saying this is impossible because I don't know all the circumstances, but it would definitely be up to you to provide the evidence that meet all the necessary entrance criteria before you could be considered or accepted into a religious community. If this avenue does not turn out to be open to you, I still urge you to seek spiritual guidance in order to continue your journey to bring yourself closer to God and to increase in holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InPersonaChriste Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dear Katie, Welcome to Phatmass, Listen to cmaria's sound advice, as it is a very delicate topic, and not to mention a very hard topic to answer! I will pray for you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 This doesn't look promising for you... but as I said, please seek professional advice. [quote] [b] Vatican says 'sex-change' operation does not change person's gender[/b] Sep. 19, 2011 By John Norton Catholic News Service [[i]Editor's note: This article is from the archives of the Catholic News Service. It is dated Jan-14-2003.[/i]] VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- After years of study, the Vatican's doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that "sex-change" procedures do not change a person's gender in the eyes of the church. Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone "sex-change" procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a source familiar with the text. The document was completed in 2000 and sent "sub secretum" (under secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops' conferences as well. "The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source. Bishop Wilton D. Gregory of Belleville, Ill., president of the U.S. bishops' conference, sent a brief letter to U.S. bishops in October informing them of the Vatican document and highlighting its instruction not to alter parish baptismal records, except to make a notation in the margin when deemed necessary. "The altered condition of a member of the faithful under civil law does not change one's canonical condition, which is male or female as determined at the moment of birth," Bishop Gregory wrote. The Vatican text defines transsexualism as a psychic disorder of those whose genetic makeup and physical characteristics are unambiguously of one sex but who feel that they belong to the opposite sex. In some cases, the urge is so strong that the person undergoes a "sex-change" operation to acquire the opposite sex's external sexual organs. The new organs have no reproductive function. The document's conclusions close one area of controversial speculation that arose in Italy in the late 1980s when a priest publicly announced he had undergone a "sex-change" operation. Given church teaching that only males can be validly ordained priests, the question posed in newspapers at the time was whether a priest who undergoes a "sex-change" operation remains a priest -- the answer is "yes" -- and whether a woman who undergoes the procedure can be ordained -- "no." A Vatican source said the text was prepared largely by Jesuit Father Urbano Navarrete, now a retired canon law professor at Rome's Gregorian University. In 1997, Father Navarrete wrote an article on transsexualism in an authoritative canon law journal and has been consulted by the doctrinal congregation on specific cases involving transsexualism and hermaphroditism. The priest, citing confidentiality rules, declined to speak on the record to Catholic News Service for this story. The Vatican document's specific points include: -- An analysis of the moral licitness of "sex-change" operations. It concludes that the procedure could be morally acceptable in certain extreme cases if a medical probability exists that it will "cure" the patient's internal turmoil. But a source familiar with the document said recent medical evidence suggested that in a majority of cases the procedure increases the likelihood of depression and psychic disturbance. -- A provision giving religious superiors administrative authority to expel a member of the community who has undergone the procedure. In most cases of expulsion from religious life, the superior must conduct a trial. -- A recommendation of psychiatric treatment and spiritual counseling for transsexual priests. It suggests they can continue to exercise their ministry privately if it does not cause scandal. -- A conclusion that those who undergo sex-change operations are unsuitable candidates for priesthood and religious life because of mental instability. -- A conclusion that people who have undergone a sex-change operation cannot enter into a valid marriage, either because they would be marrying someone of the same sex in the eyes of the church or because their mental state casts doubt on their ability to make and uphold their marriage vows. -- An affirmation of the validity of marriages in which one partner later undergoes the procedure, unless a church tribunal determines that a transsexual disposition predated the wedding ceremony. END [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Other posters have given you sound advice! A spiritual director is a must. I have actually heard of such a vocation being admitted to a monastery. Possibly such a situation is more suited to a contemplative vocation than otherwise. I believe it happened under the auspices of Cardinal Burke (then Archbishop Burke) who is certainly not heterodox. So it is possible but needs to be approached with care. Good luck and God bless you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnneLine Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Praying for you - and second the advice to find a good spiritual director and canon lawyer on this. God bless you and guide you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictlyinkblot Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Dear Katie, I don't know a lot about church law on this subject. The other posters know more about it then me and have already given you good advice. But I will pray for you and I dearly hope that you find peace and that God will lead you to where He wants you to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest katie bell Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hello again every one, I sit here over welmed by the responce i have just got here, All i have had is hostility about this most of my life. I have basicly been exculded from church life because of this since i did it and although i have practiced my faith, i can provided documents ect, you can imagen. I have been baptised since my op as i felt i needed to, As for orders I already know what i want on that frount, cloistered comunity where i spend time getting to know God, In a strict environment. I want my wedding day with God and frankly i never want to worry about the outside world again. I just want to state that i never felt like a boy or a young man, and i was a girl in that body, Since i could not click my fingers and jump to the next one i had to do what i did, And i will never go back on it. What i guess i want to know having got this far is this, I would like to go on a retreat to a nunnery to prove my self to the order to get a chance to join them, Im in the uk right now, to be honest i dont care where my faith takes me. I would not even know where to start in england any way, The US has a way better presence online. Thank you again for not shouting at me:) Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strictlyinkblot Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='katie bell' timestamp='1326186083' post='2366238'] Hello again every one, I sit here over welmed by the responce i have just got here, All i have had is hostility about this most of my life. I have basicly been exculded from church life because of this since i did it and although i have practiced my faith, i can provided documents ect, you can imagen. I have been baptised since my op as i felt i needed to, As for orders I already know what i want on that frount, cloistered comunity where i spend time getting to know God, In a strict environment. I want my wedding day with God and frankly i never want to worry about the outside world again. I just want to state that i never felt like a boy or a young man, and i was a girl in that body, Since i could not click my fingers and jump to the next one i had to do what i did, And i will never go back on it. What i guess i want to know having got this far is this, I would like to go on a retreat to a nunnery to prove my self to the order to get a chance to join them, Im in the uk right now, to be honest i dont care where my faith takes me. I would not even know where to start in england any way, The US has a way better presence online. Thank you again for not shouting at me:) Katie [/quote] I think you're very brave. With my history I'm the last one to ever pass judgement on who should or shouldn't enter. I don't know where you are living but may I suggest you start with www.free2become.org Its a discernment group in Westminister for adult discerning all types of vocations. They have some great links. Edited January 10, 2012 by Strictlyinkblot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indwelling Trinity Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Hi Katie and welcome to the gang! I concur with what other members have said... having a good spiritual director is very important for your vocational discernment not only for you but for all who are seeking their true vocation in life. The fact that you had a gender reassignment might be an obstacle depending on the reasons. I am not a Canon lawyer by any means, but it seems to me that there is a significant difference between solely psychologically based transgender choice as opposed to one who is born androgynous, The first is psychically based whereas the second is physiologically based. With that being said, even if becoming a nun in community is not a possible option for you, thee are other expressions of consecrated life that may well fit within the parameters of your particular situation. As the others have said, A good spiritual director is essential for you so as to better ascertain your real options as well as to support your vocational journey to Christ. One does not just join any community that will take them. One prayerfully seeks God's will according to a specific spirituality that one is suited for. That seeking is a wonderful experience of God's working in our lives. So hang in there and don't be afraid of rejection here... this is a loving little cyber community and i for one welcome you with all my heart. I will be praying for you as you discern God's call for you.! Indwelling Trinity Edited January 10, 2012 by Indwelling Trinity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AccountDeleted Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Katie - having given the matter further thought, I am a little troubled at your situation. I understand that it is very hard on you that your whole life you have had to deal with the feelings of not being the gender that God endowed you with. My concern is that the purpose of a nun's whole life is to surrender their will to God's will. You have already rejected His will by your actions. Since you have not said that the reasons for your surgery were physical (being born with both genitalia and being forced to choose, for example), I am assuming (although please correct me if I am wrong) that your choice was based on your psychological needs alone. This would raise a warning flag in many communities, as it is very important that one be well balanced psychologically to live in community. You might feel that you are now well balanced, since you have had your operation, but the fact still exists that you denied God's will for your life, and chose to change your gender to achieve that balance. What if God's will now is that you not live in religious life? Are you able to accept that? I am not trying to be judgmental here, but these questions will be raised should you apply to enter somewhere, unless you are planning to lie about your operation? This would not be a good way to start a life where you are trying to follow God's will. Before you start looking at any communities, I strongly advise you to obtain help from a professional within the Church, perhaps a Catholic psychologist, or a priest/psychologist (they do exist), and he might be able to recommend a canon lawyer as well. You can check with your diocesan office. You say that you have been baptised since your operation. Were you also baptised before? Did you advise the priests who performed the baptism of your situation? You don't have to answer my questions here, but you need to ask them of yourself. Have you been confirmed as well? I am just not sure what your legal status is within the Church, and if you are not in communion with her, you mostly certainly could not be accepted into a religious community. I understand that you have a deep longing for this life, but you also need to see if you are still fighting God's will for you. I am not suggesting that you do anything about an operation that has already been done, but I am strongly suggesting that your situation is not one that can really be addressed by any of us here as there are too many things of concern that need to be addressed before you should even think about a religious vocation. I am sorry that you felt unable to stay a man, as being a priest would have been my first choice, has I been a man! God did bless you in this way, even if you didn't see it at the time. While I can't offer a lot of hope about life as a nun for you (I see so many problems), I do welcome you here and hope that you will continue to post with us. There are many other ways, apart from entering religious life, that are open to you to serve God. Both males and females can become consecrated hermits if this appeals to you. Or you can make private vows. Please make a connection with a priest and start seeking some professional guidance before you get your hopes too high. I am sorry to sound so negative, but religious life is hard enough without all of the challenges you carry before you even start discerning! Prayers for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bernadette d Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 [quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1326188476' post='2366241'] Katie - having given the matter further thought, I am a little troubled at your situation. I understand that it is very hard on you that your whole life you have had to deal with the feelings of not being the gender that God endowed you with. My concern is that the purpose of a nun's whole life is to surrender their will to God's will. You have already rejected His will by your actions. Since you have not said that the reasons for your surgery were physical (being born with both genitalia and being forced to choose, for example), I am assuming (although please correct me if I am wrong) that your choice was based on your psychological needs alone. This would raise a warning flag in many communities, as it is very important that one be well balanced psychologically to live in community. You might feel that you are now well balanced, since you have had your operation, but the fact still exists that you denied God's will for your life, and chose to change your gender to achieve that balance. What if God's will now is that you not live in religious life? Are you able to accept that? I am not trying to be judgmental here, but these questions will be raised should you apply to enter somewhere, unless you are planning to lie about your operation? This would not be a good way to start a life where you are trying to follow God's will. Before you start looking at any communities, I strongly advise you to obtain help from a professional within the Church, perhaps a Catholic psychologist, or a priest/psychologist (they do exist), and he might be able to recommend a canon lawyer as well. You can check with your diocesan office. You say that you have been baptised since your operation. Were you also baptised before? Did you advise the priests who performed the baptism of your situation? You don't have to answer my questions here, but you need to ask them of yourself. Have you been confirmed as well? I am just not sure what your legal status is within the Church, and if you are not in communion with her, you mostly certainly could not be accepted into a religious community. I understand that you have a deep longing for this life, but you also need to see if you are still fighting God's will for you. I am not suggesting that you do anything about an operation that has already been done, but I am strongly suggesting that your situation is not one that can really be addressed by any of us here as there are too many things of concern that need to be addressed before you should even think about a religious vocation. I am sorry that you felt unable to stay a man, as being a priest would have been my first choice, has I been a man! God did bless you in this way, even if you didn't see it at the time. While I can't offer a lot of hope about life as a nun for you (I see so many problems), I do welcome you here and hope that you will continue to post with us. There are many other ways, apart from entering religious life, that are open to you to serve God. Both males and females can become consecrated hermits if this appeals to you. Or you can make private vows. Please make a connection with a priest and start seeking some professional guidance before you get your hopes too high. I am sorry to sound so negative, but religious life is hard enough without all of the challenges you carry before you even start discerning! Prayers for you. [/quote] This is an amazing post, so much good sense and balance, thank you for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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