Northern Ireland

[Bruce S]

This is a serious matter. And for now, most who know the history, will concede that Northern Ireland is fully, and competely part of the UK.

Of course, with the birthrate of Catholics higher than Protestants, and immigration, the number of Catholics are much greater than in times past.

Essentially, this mirrors the situation here in the USA, in the states of California and Texas. There too, you have large numbers of immigrant and native Catholics who are agitating for a RETURN of California and Texas to Mexico.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history, and move a territory from it's rightful owners [however that happened] and affiliate with a majority Catholic nearby entity.

Using violence [and yes, they have here too, but not as often] they want to achieve with force, what history has handed them.

Now, for the Protestants, they have to understand that Catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance, and even the military.

Religous stife is rampant, it was normative in the period following the reformation, with BOTH sides killing and looting in the name of their respective doctrines.

Here in the USA, we more or less accept that everyone has a religious background, and that should not be the case for lording one brand over others. That is the "beef" atheists, Muslims, and other sects have with ALL Christians, despite our being formed as a Christian nation, they say, and rightly so, that we so dominate the culture that they have to put up with stuff we are shoving in their direction. And they may have a point, certainly this is a daily battle now in the courts.

[Proud Protestant]

"Now, for the Protestants, they have to understand that Catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance, and even the military."

PILE OF $H!T

No harm to you - but the catholic's do this whole thing where they make out that they are the underdogs - rubbish.

They are in our government - they have 2 main parties Sien Fein (whom i absolutely despise as the members are self confessed murders that worked with the IRA. Martin Maguiness took part in Bloody Sunday And I cannot see why the British Government can allow murders to help run our country.) and the SDLP. They are equal in Business and finance, but the military is the big one!

The catholics despises our former police force named the RUC as they felt they were being treated 'unfairly' when realli the catholics would not co-operate at all with the forces. The force's name has since been changed to the PSNI. (RUC stood for Royal Ulster Constabulary) Some catholics have joined the new force, but most will not as it seems almost forbidden for a catholic to join. The catholics refuse to join the army and they have almost had our Army shut down - the Royal Irish Regiment.

They arent an innocent party and people need to realise that.

[Proud Protestant]

""but most will not as it seems almost forbidden for a catholic to join.""

I should repphrase that - some catholics DO want to join the police force, but cant as their families will disown them etc for seemingly joining a 'protestant' force.

[NewReformation]

Oh my goodness, you're a Buchanan? I'm from the Buchanan clan!! We might be long lost relatives...... :D

My mother and Maternal grandparents are Buchanans, so I've got it in me.

[cmotherofpirl]

AS a Stuart I demand the return of everything, including the throne of England. :D

[Anna]

My son-in-law is from Ireland, where Catholics and Protestants get along as well as anyplace.

The fighting in Northern Ireland isn't over religion; it isn't over doctrinal differences.

It's about native born Irish Catholics wanting to hold onto their land and their country, rather than being ruled by a Protestant (and seemingly anti-Catholic) from of Governing system: the British Parliament...

Is it still illegal for a Catholic to be a member of parliament in England? It was last I knew. So, yes, I think it may be fair to say that Catholics don't feel they have any real authority.

And I think Bruce is hilarious...Catholics have invaded all these countries and states and towns and are now overpopulating them in an attempt to take them over.... :shootme:

You crack me up.

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

Here, just like there, you had an established protestant power structure and  upstart new immigrants of catholic faith seeking a piece if the pie, money and a place in society.

(The bold text is what I've highlighted, not Bruce)

You completely misrepresent the situation in Northern Ireland, Bruce! The upstart new immigrants in Ireland were the protestants, not the catholics! Ireland was catholic until the English tried to impose protestantism on the people. (for political reasons, since as I've said before, it was originally about the land, not religion - faith was used as a smoke screen in this matter.) Protestant people largely migrated to Ireland, not the other way round, though of course now there is a protestant history and culture unique to Northern Ireland which is what makes a simplistic response to the situation impossible.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history and move territory from it's rightful owners (however that happened) and affiliate with a majority catholic nearby entity.

Well, we could debate the concept of 'rightful owners' here couldn't we?!

Anna, it is not illegal for catholics to sit in the houses of Parliament - in fact until very recently two leaders out of the main three political parties, Conservative and Liberal were both practising catholics - the new Conservative leader is Jewish and if they win the next general election, he will be only the second Jewish Prime minister we have had. It is illegal for a member of the royal family to marry a catholic or convert themselves and still lay claim to the throne however.

cmom, there has been some investigation into the fact that one of our kings, Edward IV (I believe) was illigitmate and therefore the entire royal line since is wrong! Had this been out in the open at the time, there would have been a Plantagenent on the throne, not a tudor and Henry VIII would not have existed as king! They have traced the last surviving Platagenent (who actually has a legitimate claim if he wants to make it!) and he lives in Australia and is a republican!! Isn't that a lovely irony?!

Proud Portestant, there are self confessed murderers on both sides of the religious divide. Unfortunately at the moment it would appear that it's the biggest protestant party that's refusing to sit down at the table and discuss peace with the catholics.....isn't it time for hard hearted men on both sides to move towards reconciliation and healing?

Phew, this has to be my longest post at PM!

[Anna]

Ellenita,

Have I told you lately that I think you're wonnnnnnnnnderful? (((hugs))))

Pax Christi. <><

[CatholicAndFanatical]

why make it a protestant - Catholic thing?? Its a political thing, like democrat and republican. Religious beliefs should have no part in this. If it is a religious thing, then I think its up to the Bishops of that area, and even at the Vatican to step up and put a stop to the Catholic part of it, by getting involved and saying they do not represent the Catholic Church when they do the things i've read on here that they do.

CatholicAndFanatical

[cmotherofpirl]

hugs to ellenita as well. :D

I am still claiming my rights to the throne, but I'll let it ride til after I take over Austria and Germany loot from the Rudolph of Hapsburg empire. :D

Family trees are such fun.! ::

[Bruce S]

And I think Bruce is hilarious...Catholics have invaded all these countries and states and towns and are now overpopulating them in an attempt to take them over....  You crack me up.

I rarely if ever state something without being able to back it up:

Nationalists advance inexorably, making love not war

(by Ed Maloney, Sunday Tribune)

Whatever the outcome of the Stormont Talks there are many people who believe that the real engine for change in Northern Ireland is sex, reproductive sex that is, and in particular a Catholic propensity to do it better than Protestants. It is this, they believe, which will in the not too distant future make NI a gradually but inexorably more Nationalist place to live in.

As one might expect in Ireland this proposition has develeped into one of the most intense and heated debates of recent years not least because the disciples and opponents of the view each accuse the other of distorting the facts for political purposes. Basically those who believe that it is happening are accused of peddling Provo propaganda while the opponents are reviled as antedeluvian Unionists.

In the green corner are people like Niall O'Dowd, the New York publisher, peace process activist and friend of Gerry Adams and Tim Pat Coogan, the former Irish Press editor and prolific writer.

Writing in the Irish Times just after the second IRA ceasefire O'Dowd employed it as the classical argument why Unionists should sit down and negotiate with Sinn Fein. "For all the parties", he wrote, "there is ..the lurking reality of the demographic tide which could well deliver a nationalist majority in Northern Ireland relatively early in the next century".

In other words the Catholics are going to outbreed you so you better deal now before its too late. What O'Dowd didn't mention was that the same argument is used in SF's internal debates to justify the ceasefire and the peace process.

Tim Pat Coogan has been approaching the argument from a different angle and comes closest to providing impirical evidence for the view in the form of voting figures showing a lower Unionist turnout these days and a higher Nationalist one.

Writing in last week's Ireland on Sunday he said: "In the October'74 general election, the Unionists got 62.1 per cent of the vote and Nationalists 29.7 %. In last May's general election, the vaild vote had risen by some 90,000 but the Unionist percentage had fallen to 50.5 % and the Nationalists had gone up to 40.2 %...the Nationalists are clearly heading for a majority".

In the blue corner are former FG Taoiseach Garret Fitzgerald and Northern academics like Paul Compton and Professor Richard Breen, all of whom, whisper the critics, are motivated by anti-Nationalist views of one sort or another.

They have one advantage over the 'outbreeders' in that they have produced a detailed statistical study of demographic trends. This was written by a Northern civil servant, Edgar Jardine of the Department of Finanace and Personnel. That sort of background is of course enough to beaver dam him in the eyes of the 'outbreeders' but his figures and arguments are worth looking at.

The first point that Jardine makes in his 1994 study is that the big Catholic population explosion could be over. His evidence from the last three census results are fraught with problems not least the fact that two of them, in 1971 and 1981, took place during political crises which produced a large Catholic boycott. Nevertheless his figures show a steady drop in the Catholic birthrate from 25.4 per 1,000 in 1971 to 19.5 per 1,000 in 1991 while the non-Catholic birthrate, while also falling appears to be stabilising at around 14 per 1,000.

Computing that along with death and migration rates he predicts a possible net Catholic growth of 6,000 per year. With the two populations separated by some 280,000 (42.1% Catholic to 57.9% Protestant) it would by 2037 before there was a Catholic majority and perhaps 2057 before there is a voting majority.

Thus, the Catholics WERE "outbreeding" Protestants two to one, now are "down to" outbreeding them ONLY by 50% !!

Grin.

See, the breeding statement was true in Northern Ireland, AND is true here in the USA too.

I have statistics that show that to be true here also.

[Anna]

Well the divide is between the native Catholics, and the protestants who have inculturated there and have embraced the protestant-run British government. Just as Canada is happily under British government, so too are the protestant 'irish,' who deny that they are irish, cuz they wanna be British, apparently...

So, the struggle is Catholic against protestant, but not for doctrinal or religious differences, per se, but over who holds title to the Northern tip of Ireland, which presently is considered a separate country from Ireland, ruled by the British. Ireland, on the other hand, is an independent country, where the Catholics and protestants get along same as anyplace else...

So, it's not for the pope or bishops to really do much. It's a political war, over leadership and sovereinty, one side wanting to be under the queen, the other side wanting to go back the way it was before, being independent.

I think the concept that is a religious war is partly due to the media differentiating the two sides by their religious affiliation. They could call them the independents and the monarchists or something, I suppose...

Pax Christi. <><

[Bruce S]

Well the divide is between the native Catholics, and the protestants who have inculturated there and have embraced the protestant-run British government. Just as Canada is happily under British government, so too are the protestant 'irish,' who deny that they are irish, cuz they wanna be British, apparently...

Huh? The STATE of Ireland, is newish. They were ALL citizens of the UK, for ages, in the south too, which was fully and completely NOT Ireland.

Sorry.

You have now, people that want to reverse real history.

Were the British HORRID to the Catholics, of course, that cannot be denied. Was the strife that led to independence for the South justified? Most think so.

Should the North be joined with the south?

No, it never was historically, and isn't yet.

Just because it is on the same landmass, doesn't mean they SHOULD be united.

The United States, Canada, and Mexico are just as joined, and seperated. They are historically different, have different values and are not joining politically, but they increasingly are sharing a common commercial interdependence.

[NewReformation]

AS a Stuart I demand the return of everything, including the throne of England. :D

I'll see your claim to the throne of England(I as well am descended of English Kings), and I will raise it with my claim to the throne of France, Spain, Germany, as well as the right to become Emporer of the Roman Empire and reclaim the title of Caesar. I will also throw in the multiple titles of Duke and Baron that I can lay claim to as well. And I'm related to a pope. As well as 4 of the Presidents of the US(at least).

Yes, family trees are fun. Mine is full of blue-bloods.

Bwaaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! :rolling: :rolling:

[socalscout]

Essentially, this mirrors the situation here in the USA, in the states of California and Texas. There too, you have large numbers of immigrant and native Catholics who are agitating for a RETURN of California and Texas to Mexico.

Using culture and religion, they want to reverse history, and move a territory from it's rightful owners [however that happened] and affiliate with a majority Catholic nearby entity.

Using violence [and yes, they have here too, but not as often] they want to achieve with force, what history has handed them.

Now, for the Protestants, they have to understand that Catholics are fully human and need to be included in all areas of power, that includes business, finance, and even the military.

Religous stife is rampant, it was normative in the period following the reformation, with BOTH sides killing and looting in the name of their respective doctrines.

Here in the USA, we more or less accept that everyone has a religious background, and that should not be the case for lording one brand over others. That is the "beef" atheists, Muslims, and other sects have with ALL Christians, despite our being formed as a Christian nation, they say, and rightly so, that we so dominate the culture that they have to put up with stuff we are shoving in their direction. And they may have a point, certainly this is a daily battle now in the courts.

What are you talking about? Explain to me the situation here in California? I see Hispanics upset because of district representation changes but where is this struggle to be annexed to Catholic Mexico?