Paladin D Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Why are there two versions of the "Our Father"? The other version, ends like this "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever". Oddly enough, I just heard Frank Sinatra sing that version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 we end it off normally at "from evil" i think the ''for the kingdom the power and the glory are yours now and forever" is like the next verse anyway, we use that part when we say the Our Father at Mass, so maybe that's y the priest sang it that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 What happened is that some early Catholic copyist wrote those words in a margin, a later copyist mistakenly transcribed them into the biblical text, and the Protestant translators made use of a copy of the New Testament with those words included. Thus, they're really not part of the original Our Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Is it fine to say both versions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 yeah, i'd say so. it's not like we disagree with the fact that The Kingdom, The Power, and the Glory are His now and forever. I mean, we even put that part into the Holy Mass! but i'd say if ure like doin a rosary outloud in a group or somethin, stick with the ending at deliver us from evil. in the mass, however, we all do the other version. and if u want u can do it when u pray by urself. that last part just isn't technically what the Bible says Christ told us to pray to the Father, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Why are there two versions of the "Our Father"? The other version, ends like this "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever". Oddly enough, I just heard Frank Sinatra sing that version. Paladin, Catholics say the "Lord's Prayer" (called the "Our Father") as the Lord Himself taught it to His Apostles. The words "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory forever" are from a marginal gloss in the manuscript used for the King James Version of the Bible. They were inserted into the text of Mt 6:13 in error by a copyist, and Protestants have been saying the Lord's Prayer incorrectly ever since 1611 when the KJV was published. (The KJV omits this gloss in Luke 11:4.) The phrase is from the Liturgy of the Mass as it was celebrated in Greek in the first century, taken from from 1 Chronicles 29:11 in the Old Testament. You will find the words in the first century Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles), where they were used as a doxology (hymn of praise) at different intervals in the Mass, including after the Our Father. The Novus Ordo (Mass as revised after Vatican II) restored this doxology following the Our Father. First the congregation says the Our Father, then the priest says: "Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy, keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ." The congregation then says: "For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours forever, amen." But these are not Christ's words and should not be attached to the Lord's Prayer. Many Protestants have accused Catholics of "cutting Christ's words out of the Lord Prayer." That's amusing, considering the truth of the matter. The RSV does not add these words to Mt 6:13. Newer Protestant translations also omit them. This is only one of many errors in the KJV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Likos, thank you so much for another enlightening history lesson in our Faith. I knew that the concluding prayer often attached to the Lord's Prayer was a Doxology, but I never knew the history behind it. I should read your post several more times until I have it memorized, as this has been asked of me before by a Baptist I once knew. I gave the latter part of your explanation, but didn't have the history to back it up. And I had no idea that the KJV puts that Doxology in the mouth of Christ! Again, thank you. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Oddly enough, I just heard Frank Sinatra sing that version anyway, we use that part when we say the Our Father at Mass, so maybe that's y the priest sang it that way Fr. Frank Sinatra, you mean???????? B) :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joolye Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 What exactly are the two versions? I know the last line as "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory for ever and ever Amen" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Jooyle, Some people, including Catholics, usually end with "but deliver us from evil" and do not add the "For Thine is...." While we're on this, I found something funny. See, my Youth Group, when we pray the Our Father at the end of each meeting, adds the last line, but we say "For Thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory are Yours now and forever." The repetition in saying "Thine" and "are Yours" gets me everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Joolye, The part "For thine is the Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory" is what Catholics pray after praying the Lord's Prayer in Mass since the 1st Century. It was accidently included in the King James Version of the Protestant Bible in the 14th Century as being part of the Lord's Prayer when it is a seperate statement prayer about God (A Doxology) that Catholics invented!! But many Protestants believe that the old King James version is correct and think that Catholics cut it out. The current Revised King James version has corrected the Lord's Prayer now. I've heard some Catholics complain and ask why we say the Protestant version of the Lord's prayer in our Mass. It's kinda funny, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I think it's kinda funny when, at a nuptial Mass, funeral Mass, or other occasion where there are lots of non-Catholics, the congregation says the Our Father, and the non-Catholics start to say the "For thine is the kingdom . . . " right as the priest says the "Deliver us, O Lord" prayer. I think it confuses them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 this is the craziest mistake i've ever heard of! so they took something from the Catholic tradition, then said that we took that part out, when in fact they got that part from us!!! AHHH the irony is histarical B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 12, 2003 Share Posted October 12, 2003 The craziest mistake was breaking away from Christ's Church in the first place! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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